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 Post subject: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:07 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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With all the current debates I am just curious what would players think about a range restriction for attack rolls? Obviosuly still keep it simple something like range 12 on all ranged attacks or 18 for mounted weapons. Not even sure if I am for it, but just something I was thinking about. It might be easier to add that rule than what it would take to have all the maps kind to melee characters. I also wonder if it would save time. Alot of first and second round positioning would be easier because its more obvious that the long shots would be more than 12 squares.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:36 pm 
Death Star Designers
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This is actually an idea i have been thinking. First off i know it will never happen as it changes a game mechanic rule and those seem to be pretty far off limits, but i really think shooters should be limited to either 12 or maybe 18. I think this could really balance the game. If people wanted some flavor, they could say characters with sniper have no range or characters with mounted weapon have no range or increased range. This is a mechanic i wish had been there since the beginning, but as i said, i know this will never be looked at.

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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:18 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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I highly doubt it would change unless it was part of major revamp...which i don't want to see. It just seems like it could fix alot of the current problems without having to restrict map design so much.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:26 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Omnus wrote:
I also wonder if it would save time.



How would having to count range with every single attack save time? :?:

:)

I think it's an interesting idea - maybe range 12 for non-melee with damage 10 (pistols), 18 for 20 (rifles), and 24 for above (Big Fun Guns). But overall, I don't think it's a good idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:03 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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I think every melee only mini should get +2 to their speed. Basically the average mini now has speed 8 and so forth. This would at least allow the melee minis to have a chance of getting across the board and catch the shooters.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:09 am 
Master of the Order
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Maybe a re-write to the rules to allow Melee only minis to move triple their speed if they make no attacks that round, instead of double? Obviously, would have to carefully word that so that you wouldn't be able to abuse things like Galloping Attack, or Greater Mobile, but it would help Melee pieces get into the fray easier. Would be sort of akin to the "full-out run" option in the RPG.

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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:59 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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As a homebrew rule should the official game ever end, I've already (and long ago) decided that would be the rule. 12 square ranges on non-melee attacks and sight-ranged mechanics. I know people like the idea of not counting squares, but...if you think about it, you count squares much more often than not. If nothing else, it would even the field (IMO, not saying this absolutely) for melee vs. shooters.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:43 am 
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I do think the shooting from one side of the board to the other is excessive and is pretty unique to SWM.

One other idea is decreasing the attack value of the range figure per 'X' number of squares, say Boba BH is shooting Cade BH 18 squares away and the rule is you reduce the attacker's attack by 1 for each 6 squares. So, he would have a 15 attack instead of 18.

That is just an example, I have issue mostly with 'sight' abilities like Cesta, Missles, and such ALWAYS getting to the point where the accuracy of said abilities is the same whether they are right next to each other or across the board. I think range 18 would work for those. It would make sense if the save would go down by 1 per 6 squares for example but I think overall it would be better if there was a set range for it.

Force Powers like Grip and Push would probably stay the same since in SW terms Vader or random said Jedi/Sith can use the Force that is 'around the character' and they aren't trying to shoot a missle through figures/wind/objects with 50/50 accuracy.

Of course range 6 for the beginning of attack value isn't necessarily my suggestion but 8 or 10 could work as well. Also if the shot is below or above a denomination of 6 just round down so it doesn't hose Shooters.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:40 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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headache62 wrote:
Omnus wrote:
I also wonder if it would save time.



How would having to count range with every single attack save time? :?:

:)

I think it's an interesting idea - maybe range 12 for non-melee with damage 10 (pistols), 18 for 20 (rifles), and 24 for above (Big Fun Guns). But overall, I don't think it's a good idea.


I explained it in the post. I believe in the first 2-3 rounds of the game there is alot of time spent positioning to carefully avoid long range shots. Alot of that time could be bypassed because the shots would obviously be beyond 12 squares.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:44 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Omnus wrote:
I explained it in the post. I believe in the first 2-3 rounds of the game there is alot of time spent positioning to carefully avoid long range shots. Alot of that time could be bypassed because the shots would obviously be beyond 12 squares.

This is a good point. When a squad is outgunned, tey spend several rounds trying to approach while staying out of LoS. If you know you cant get shot that early, it makes it much faster to engage. Its a good point i hadnt thought about.

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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:04 pm 
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Omnus wrote:
I explained it in the post. I believe in the first 2-3 rounds of the game there is alot of time spent positioning to carefully avoid long range shots. Alot of that time could be bypassed because the shots would obviously be beyond 12 squares.


So instead of maneuvering now while working around LoS, you are counting with every move to see if you are more than 18 squares away? (range 12 plus move 6). That does not sound faster to me - I can see LoS much easier than I can count 18 squares.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:47 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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headache62 wrote:
Omnus wrote:
I explained it in the post. I believe in the first 2-3 rounds of the game there is alot of time spent positioning to carefully avoid long range shots. Alot of that time could be bypassed because the shots would obviously be beyond 12 squares.


So instead of maneuvering now while working around LoS, you are counting with every move to see if you are more than 18 squares away? (range 12 plus move 6). That does not sound faster to me - I can see LoS much easier than I can count 18 squares.


You are missing the point. That is the obvious reason why range restrictions weren't implemented. I am generally opposed to anything that slows down game play.

Obviously every person is going to play different. But i feel like in our area too much time is being taken in the early rounds trying to make sure they don't make a mistake and give up shots too early. Especially with Rex+r2 on the board. I am merely trying to point out that in some cases games might actually go faster because the early positioning should go alot faster. I fully expect that some games would go slower because they are counting squares alot. Especially mando's where you can have 3-6 shooters to count squares for.

The original comment was just me thinking about some games actually going faster in some cases because of what I mentioned. I am not sure one way or another whether it would speed up or slow down gameplay. It was just something to think about.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:03 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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has a heavily melee squad ever won a national championship ie gencon, without a movement gimmick like black and blue? If not then I do not see why a + 2 speed to melee only characters would be a big deal. The rule change would be very simple to implement and although not game changing at least give these melee figures a slight advantage to what they have now. It would have no change to the pacing of games and still allow the characters to get in the fight a little quicker.


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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:35 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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scoundrel wrote:
has a heavily melee squad ever won a national championship ie gencon, without a movement gimmick like black and blue? If not then I do not see why a + 2 speed to melee only characters would be a big deal. The rule change would be very simple to implement and although not game changing at least give these melee figures a slight advantage to what they have now. It would have no change to the pacing of games and still allow the characters to get in the fight a little quicker.


Nope, and neither has a heavy range squad. It's almost always been mixed squads.

In 2005, it was Durge and Aurra (but that was 100) and Vader JH took 2nd and 5th (the first place player did not play either of them, and the 5th beat the 2nd in round 1).

In 2006 it was Black and Blue.

In 2007 it was Broken Boba which included 2 JWMs.

In 2008 it was Speedy Cannon, where the speeder functioned as melee interference.

2009 was Deri with shooters, and Commando Luke.

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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:30 pm 
Master of the Order
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headache62 wrote:
Omnus wrote:
I also wonder if it would save time.



How would having to count range with every single attack save time? :?:


It doesn't, but most games players count range to attack anyway, or at least they should be if it's not clear what the closest target is.

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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:47 am 
Master of the Order
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Well, a 12 square range won't necessarily mean you're safe on round 2 either though. And IMO, a range restriction like that just makes Double/Triple shooters even weaker than they already are. You could simply set up your other piece at 13 squares or farther, knowing you could only take damage from one shot, rather than all 3.
Maps are only 34 squares long. Players start up to 4 squares from the edge, and then each player can move up to 12 on the first round. Granted, there's some side-to-side movement there too, but if both players were to start 4 out from the edge, then move 12 towards each other on the first round, then they would only be 4 squares apart....on round 1! The side-to-side movement, and map lay-out changes that a little, but it would still be QUITE easy to get within 12 squares of an opponent's pieces on the 2nd round. So I personally don't see that having a range restriction like this would "speed up" the first round at all.

What speeds up the first round is this: getting to know your maps. No matter what squad you are playing 90% of your pieces should move to the exact same squares on round 1. Studying the maps helps you learn the safe squares, and those squares are typically safe no matter what squads are on the map. Now of course, you have to be careful of things like Yobuck or IG Lancers or things like that, but those are the exception, not the rule. Memorize the safe squares, and your 1st Round in games will go MUCH faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:50 am 
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Yeah I think rather than a range rule regarding how far a character can attack, I'd rather see a standard-rule penalty for attacking characters more than the distance.

What I mean is that instead of limiting the range to 12, attacks against characters more than 12 squares away have a -4 penalty, or something like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Range 12 for ranged attacks?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:16 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Hmm...good point. However, upon counting from the 4th row to the center assuming no obstructions, you'd actually be 2 squares away from your opponent.

Yeah...the range 12 thing needs some work.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Yeah I think rather than a range rule regarding how far a character can attack, I'd rather see a standard-rule penalty for attacking characters more than the distance.

What I mean is that instead of limiting the range to 12, attacks against characters more than 12 squares away have a -4 penalty, or something like that.

I like that as a possible compromise. I think it might be too much to impose a cumulative -4 based on cover (or rather the +4 in cover effectively making it -8 to the attack), but if the object is to strengthen melee, who knows how far to actually take it?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:44 am 
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Master_Jorth wrote:
Hmm...good point. However, upon counting from the 4th row to the center assuming no obstructions, you'd actually be 2 squares away from your opponent.

Yeah...the range 12 thing needs some work.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Yeah I think rather than a range rule regarding how far a character can attack, I'd rather see a standard-rule penalty for attacking characters more than the distance.

What I mean is that instead of limiting the range to 12, attacks against characters more than 12 squares away have a -4 penalty, or something like that.

I like that as a possible compromise. I think it might be too much to impose a cumulative -4 based on cover (or rather the +4 in cover effectively making it -8 to the attack), but if the object is to strengthen melee, who knows how far to actually take it?

And if shooters have such penalties, how will you protect them from melee? With melee of your own.

I'm beginning to warm up to Boris's idea.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:03 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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madslaust wrote:
Master_Jorth wrote:
Hmm...good point. However, upon counting from the 4th row to the center assuming no obstructions, you'd actually be 2 squares away from your opponent.

Yeah...the range 12 thing needs some work.

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Yeah I think rather than a range rule regarding how far a character can attack, I'd rather see a standard-rule penalty for attacking characters more than the distance.

What I mean is that instead of limiting the range to 12, attacks against characters more than 12 squares away have a -4 penalty, or something like that.

I like that as a possible compromise. I think it might be too much to impose a cumulative -4 based on cover (or rather the +4 in cover effectively making it -8 to the attack), but if the object is to strengthen melee, who knows how far to actually take it?

And if shooters have such penalties, how will you protect them from melee? With melee of your own.

I'm beginning to warm up to Boris's idea.

It IS a good idea. I'm just wondering how far to take it.


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