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 Post subject: Re: Should 150 have a restricted map list?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:22 pm 
Jedi Knight
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Partof1 wrote:
StriderRe80 wrote:
Cybit wrote:
We could always bring the Magic approach; that is; if both players haven't hit a certain minimum point value (100 out of 150)? when time is called + finish the round, it is a draw. Might force people to play out games faster, because drawing isn't much better then losing (1 point vs 3 points for winning).



but the problem with that is their are some games that both players are moving fast but are not engaging becasue the other has an advantage. I have played a few games that both of us were moving fast but at the end the score was low

True, strider, but I guess it depends on whether that is the case for the majority of low score games. I think the idea has merit, because sometimes those situations come up, but more often, imo, the lower score games are due to intentional slow play. But I do see your point, and those are often the fun games :).

I als like the idea of random maps, but it needs to be adaptable for map availability


Yea i do think the maps are a little problem and i would love to see a whole new batch of maps and i thinks that is what we could really use right now


Sithdragon13 wrote:
i honestly dont think maps are the problem at 150. I think it comes down to basic game design and how shooters are being made compared to melee. Cannon squads are obviously the tops squads and the only way to change this is make only the melee friendly maps available, which i dont think will work either. 150 just needs to go away.

It might be nice to have fixed maps, but again that wont change the problems in game design.


i do believe right now maps are the problem. we want melee to be better and not get shot up on approach and if you lose map with the wrong squad it will be a uphill battle. like i said I would love just to see about 5 new maps that are balanced on both sides and melee friendly and ban a bunch of current maps

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 Post subject: Re: Should 150 have a restricted map list?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:57 pm 
Death Star Designers
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I know maps can be a problem, but the only way to truly eliminate that is to make maps melee friendly only, meaning maps like the deathstar would need to go. Then you are going to have the shooter people complaining about that, which they might have a point. It isnt a very good environment to try to introduce new maps into.

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 Post subject: Re: Should 150 have a restricted map list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:01 am 
Third Jedi from the Left
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First off I support the idea of doing a very restricted map list for 150 points.

I just thought I would point out something I noticed. For WA as we got very competitive in preperation for regionals we saw alot more of the abusive maps like taris and the now banned BC map. But when new sets hit we see a ton of throne room and ruined base. Those two tend to be the favored maps when we get new pieces and we just want to play on a fair map. Niether compeltely hurt shooters because there is still alot areas you can use to position well. But both sides of each map atleast allow for some reasonably safe advancement to gambit and generally lead to fun games. At the very least those two could be looked at as basics for where to go with new maps.


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 Post subject: Re: Should 150 have a restricted map list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:18 am 
Mandalore
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I think it's an interesting delima. Now that we see what happened this weekend, granted I've only read reports but the Snowspeeder was King of the field.

When it comes to maps and squads there will always be an abusive combo. I've noticed that the best squads work well on a number of maps, even the very balanced ones. B&B is a good example of that. But some maps make good squads even better. Take for example whats already been discussed. Taris, and Teth Monistary. The more open gambit is, and the more accessable it is, the more abusive certain squads types become.

With the exception of the trainstation, because of all the doors, the open gambit maps are like playing before gambit and satchel charge was an around. Going for the center is sucide with no real benefit. 5 points is not enoguh to make a difference when moving threw a killing field

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 Post subject: Re: Should 150 have a restricted map list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:49 pm 
Master of the Order
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Well, after a weekend of seeing Teth and Taris getting abused to no end, I'm still firmly in agreement that the maps are the biggest problem with the game right now. Yes, Melee pieces are a little weaker anyways, but its not the game mechanics that make them weaker, IMO. It is simply the fact that they must be adjacent to attack, and shooters can be all the way across the map. So, the only way to adjust that, is to start slapping a range on shooters, or design maps with a little more melee friendliness to them.

Right now, maps are 34 squares by 22 squares. So, shooters have roughly a 50 square range on a completely wide open map. Maps like Taris, that range is somewhere in the 30 range, at least. Even Teth has some opportunities for 25+ range shots. If you look at maps like Ruined Base, Death Star, Bespin, etc., yes there are places you can get those 25+ square distance shots. BUT, there are many other ways for opponents to advance without taking those kinds of hits. With Ruined Base, there are ways to reduce those distances to 5-10 squares, easily.

I don't think the maps have to completely "melee friendly". But they just can't be so wide-open as Teth/Taris/Muun Commerce. Can you imagine how broken the Snowspeeder would've been at GenCon if Broken Cristophsis had still been legal?!? Death Star doesn't have to go anywhere. Heck, Starship probably doesn't even need to. Yes, the top Speeder squads ran Starship last year and succeeded with it. But so do Lancer and Yobuck squads right now. Death Star has long been a map that runs well for Shooter squads, but that doesn't mean that Melee squads can't win on it all. Play a matchup on Taris between a Speeder and a NR Melee squad. Then play that same match-up on Death Star. It will be a MUCH closer game on Death Star.

One of the suggestions that came up SEVERAL times over the weekend at GenCon, is to add a separate section to the Floor Rules for a "Championship Level Map List". Could still leave maps like Taris, Teth, Broken Cristophsis, etc. on the regular map lists, but then create a separate list with the more balanced, and less abusive maps. Then LGS's that want a more laid back atmosphere, can run the other maps.

Whatever the case, the Championships at GenCon absolutely need to have a restricted map list again this year, like we did last year. I think that would have made the event MUCH better overall.

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 Post subject: Re: Should 150 have a restricted map list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:52 pm 
Master of the Order
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Easy fellas.

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 Post subject: Re: Should 150 have a restricted map list?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:32 pm 
Death Star Designers
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LoboStele wrote:
is to add a separate section to the Floor Rules for a "Championship Level Map List". Could still leave maps like Taris, Teth, Broken Cristophsis, etc. on the regular map lists, but then create a separate list with the more balanced, and less abusive maps. Then LGS's that want a more laid back atmosphere, can run the other maps.

This is perhaps the best idea i think i have heard yet. Local venues tend to self regulate for the most part. The problems become glaring problems at things like gencon. Rebels have been the kick ass squad for over a year now, but locally, no one ever played them - at least not like that. This is why i think it would be too hard to find "problem maps" until its too late. It seems like every gencon people are coming out of it with abused maps.

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