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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:43 am 
Master of the Order
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I kill Gungans wrote:
But that isn't the idea of the game. If a melee squad reaches a non-melee squad with all pieces, it wins. The game should be a little more balanced towards melee, yes, but it is no use to unbalance it towards melee.

At my LGS we are hoping since years for a new rule that all lightsaber minis have a LS Deflect. For those who have it printed on their card it is 1 as it already is, for others it is 2 Force points. This way a Jedi squad would have a better chance of resisting a shooter squad.

The main problem though is that so many shooters already have twin and double twin. It is absurd that a 28 point Dash Rendar has double, twin and greater mobile. He isn't even a major character in the movies or novels. But nonetheless the mini exists and constantly kills melee beatsticks.

A rules change would be in order to help melee minis, not letting them set up 4 squares more into the map.


I tend to agree with most of this. I don't want to see the game turn into a melee-brawl setting. I think they were on the right road to fixing melee with sets like CotF and BH. The problem was that they were also adjusting non-melee in the process.

We've seen some serious missteps with the game in the last couple of years in terms of play balance. And I'm not just talking about Soresu Style Mastery or General Rieekan. Greater Mobile Attack + Twin Attack + Double Attack damaged play balance, but so did Yoda on Kybuck and GG DAC + Lancer, and to a greater extent IMO. A 24-square move, followed by a second 24-square move that knocks out the fodder, most of the mid-size pieces, and leaves the big hitters severely damaged.

I've heard and read a lot of comments from people about how 200 pts. is so much more open than 150. I couldn't disagree more. I think the strongest squads only become stronger at 200, and the only other one that can realistically be added to the mix is the GG DAC/Lancer combo. IMO.

I could say more on the subject but I think I will hold off.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:14 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I've heard and read a lot of comments from people about how 200 pts. is so much more open than 150. I couldn't disagree more. I think the strongest squads only become stronger at 200, and the only other one that can realistically be added to the mix is the GG DAC/Lancer combo. IMO



This has been my impression. 200 point games are fun sometimes, but I much prefer 150 points.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:36 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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jbnimble wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I've heard and read a lot of comments from people about how 200 pts. is so much more open than 150. I couldn't disagree more. I think the strongest squads only become stronger at 200, and the only other one that can realistically be added to the mix is the GG DAC/Lancer combo. IMO



This has been my impression. 200 point games are fun sometimes, but I much prefer 150 points.


I really don't feel 200 is that great of a format right now. I loved 200 when it was about the triple threat style squads but now its just beefed up cannon squads, super vigos, ig swarms and maybe lancer in their too. Its just huge amounts of damage output that is completely unbalanced compared to the amount of HP figures have.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:29 am 
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I actually don't think 150 or 200 is really all that different. Those extra 50 points are gravey. There are some very obusive squads in both formats. The one advantage 200 has is that there is a little mroe room for counters for some of the power squads because of the extra room for tech

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:08 pm 
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I like the 200 because I can include combos of pieces I can't normally in a smaller squad. I also think the more pieces there are on the board the more interesting and complex the game can be. I think a 100 pt squad can be rather generic and boring to play. Many of the uniques are just so expensive it is hard to justify them in a small squad. At 200 it really opens up.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:30 pm 
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I actually see many different squad types in 100. You can't get all the tech that you fit in in 150+, so pure myscle, or even gimmick squads become somewhat competeitive.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:40 pm 
Death Star Designers
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Somewhat?!? That is all 150 has ever been. Over simplified but:
100pts: Power
150pts: tech
200: nice mix of things

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:11 pm 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
Somewhat?!? That is all 150 has ever been. Over simplified but:
100pts: Power
150pts: tech
200: nice mix of things


Oddly, that's a pretty good analysis.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:09 am 
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dalsiandon wrote:
I actually don't think 150 or 200 is really all that different. Those extra 50 points are gravey. There are some very obusive squads in both formats. The one advantage 200 has is that there is a little mroe room for counters for some of the power squads because of the extra room for tech


Problem is that your opponent also has 50 more points to devote to whatever he is playing, and he's already paid for all the CEs he is using in the 150pt squad. That means more buffed up followers, which should mean more damage output and/or survivability. Counters are never guaranteed to work, since you might not be countering the right things. Maybe you pack extra Kel'dors expecting Lancers, but you end up facing IG-86 swarms? Plus, those counters may not be adding any real synergy to your squad other than their role as counters.

I prefer 150. Need to think more about how many CEs/followers you can fit in, plus games are faster.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:32 pm 
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I dont think 150 games are any faster at all especially considering how many still go to time at 150. Once the figures engage, it doesn't take any longer and often times is even quicker as the damage output in 200 is just so high that things are dieing all the time. Sure, they might still go to time, but by then a winner is usually pretty clear.

Also, it isn't simply a matter of getting 50 points to benefit from the commander effects already built into the squad. There are plenty of situations where it allows you to use commander effects that would otherwise be unusable or underpowered due to the cost of the commander. Sure 50 more points of followers is good for factions that have good CEs at 150, but those 50 points can turn factions like mandos and sith into something competitive. I think i proved sith were plenty competitive enough at 200 during the team tournament, however they just plain aren't good enough at lower point formats to do more than break even. If 200 points adds another faction or two that can be competitive, I don't see how we can justify not doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:17 pm 
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Also in 150 you generally have a lot of firepower that only need take down 1 maybe two major threats. Do that and the game is over, which is why i think the rebels dominate 150 so badly. They can do this. At 200 you have 2,3 maybe even four solid threats to deal with (or a super crap ton of troopers). With the low HP of the rebels, they can have a hard time taking down enough threats before they drop.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:25 am 
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I mentioned this to a few guys at our con yesterday. I think that alot of squads tend to become fads. You have a great player like Bill post a squad like the canon he played at GenCon. Players see it in action then sooner or later tons of players are mimicking it. It's just like any other thing in society when it comes to fads. Personally I think most factions played in the right hands can be competitive. Maybe a challenge to some of these top players would be to get together and all of them decide to play a different faction in the next GenCon :)

I also think at 200 factions like the Sith, Seps and Mandos tend to be a bit more competitive since their pieces tend to cost a bit more to make a decent squad. Rebels are great for 100, 150 since their good pieces are not as high priced to form good synergy.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:57 pm 
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Mickey wrote:
I mentioned this to a few guys at our con yesterday. I think that alot of squads tend to become fads. You have a great player like Bill post a squad like the canon he played at GenCon. Players see it in action then sooner or later tons of players are mimicking it. It's just like any other thing in society when it comes to fads. Personally I think most factions played in the right hands can be competitive. Maybe a challenge to some of these top players would be to get together and all of them decide to play a different faction in the next GenCon :)


Some great players played factions other than rebel in GenCon, only one non-rebel squad made the top 8.

Although the results were possibly distorted by the single tourney sample i believe that 7-8 rebel squads finishing top highlights the advantages they have over popularity reason for it.
Reiken
Dodonna
Princess leia
Han smuggler
override

power and tech for less than 100 points. so at 150 you get a 2nd awsome threat to take the heat of the han cannon.

Its the same reason no rebel squads were present in the TileWars tourney. The format benefits that faction.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:04 pm 
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I agree with Deri on this one, it isn't just popularity. Some other notable finishes were Wedge with Yodabuck at 4-3, Lou with Yodabuck at 4-3, JonnyB with Gungans at 4-3, JamesWys with WFFs (I think 3-4), Rueben (Grand Admiral) with Yodabuck at 4-3, and Jason Kiernan with 181st Pilots going either 5-2 or 4-3.

Several of them were close, but the speeder squads were just a little better in most cases.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:36 pm 
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I think that you have a good point about cannon squads just being a little bit better, sure other factions can do well but not quite good enough. At 200 points it makes NR very competitive as well as sith and possible even others. It part of the reason that the Tourney to 200 points is my biggest like from the possible changes

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:33 am 
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Yes but I think those top players that finished well with rebels would finish well with other squad types. I don't think it is so much that they used rebels as the fact they are good players. I think it would be interesting if those top 8 players this year actively took a chance next year and played different squads not normally seen as good and see where they finish. I bet they still finish in the top tier.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:43 am 
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Mickey wrote:
I bet they still finish in the top tier.

Not without removing those "superior" options from the entire tournament. Let's say for example, you took the top 8 players from this year, and forced them to use a slightly less powerful faction next year, but you still allowed everyone else to play the best of the best. You wouldn't see more than 1 top 8 repeat most likely, maybe 2. As it is, the competitiveness of the Gencon tourney is like nothing else anyone sees in this game. Any of the top 30 are very very strong players and could easily make the top 8. There aren't many repeats from year to year either.

Plus, what would be the point? To win some moral battle about proving Rebels aren't as good as advertised? That's like the guy who told me I shouldn't play Gencon using GOWK because I should challenge myself. The tournament is about playing your absolute best, and that includes squad construction, strategies, counter meta preparation and tactics, and so many other things, that choosing to play a subpar squad to prove a point isn't a realistic option. There are people who like to do this in general, that already do it. This year, they didn't finish so well. Did you even read the list of names of people who didn't run Rebels and how they finished? All of those are top level players.

The second tier players at Gencon are people that are good enough to make the top 8. They just tend to be missing something. Sometimes its practice, sometimes is nerves, sometimes its just experience. But even still, every year, a couple of surprises make it through. You are honestly telling me that the top 8 are so much better than everyone else that we could give everyone else Rebels and still win it? Lol. You need to be there and see what the games look like in the final 3 rounds to really understand I think, but they are nothing but easy, even when you have what in reality is a very minor squad advantage (bigger advantage if you won the map roll in this particular case.)

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:52 pm 
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I talked to Wedge Smith after he had a while to think about the champs and his opinion in short was that he ran the wrong squad. Kybuck swap was good, but not quite good enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:31 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:08 am 
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Bill, I don't want to sound harsh but your whole reply reeks of "it is all about winning". As I said in another post, if I do get lucky and make it to GenCon next year, I won't be playing championship minis because that is not my style. It's too competitive and your post just proves it.

However, I think there are many different squad types out there that can be competitive at that championship level. Sure the rebels have some nice synergy going for it, but I do think other squads can compete. I really disagree rebels are dominating the field. I think the real story is rebels are dominating the squad builds.

When threads creep up like this I feel a need to comment. The reason being is because all my experience in gaming says I don't want some loud voices getting a foothold in the community that changes the game. Anything that is stated like, "rebels are too hard to beat and they need to be downgraded" makes me nervous. Statements need to be backed by more than just words. I seem to hear this each time a huge round of matches come about. Last time it was GOWK and this time it is Rieekan. I'm sure there were figs before I came along into the competitive scene. I saw GOWK banned and I sure don't want to see Rieekan following. I'm not saying that is going to happen, but I am saying I don't want to see this trend. I'm hoping it ends with GOWK myself. Instead of talking about what needs to be changed with the rebels why not start talking about new squad builds that can compete at the national level.

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