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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:00 pm 
Master of the Order
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knightmare wrote:
This is probably a stupid idea but change Rieekan's faction to fringe, even though it doesn't fit his character. It would go a long way towards balancing the factions and hopefully the other factions will catch up in time and he can be changed back to rebel.


This is just as bad as making a Fringe piece with Booming Voice. If you make killer CEs in the Fringe faction like that, then EVERYONE runs those commanders, and we have even more of a problem with vanilla squad builds and boring metas than we do right now.

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Markedman247 wrote:
Communication Jammer: Once initiative is determined, each enemy commanders must roll a save of 11 or lose commander effect for the round.


I like the Jammer idea. Though from a practical standpoint there would in games with many commanders probably be necessary to make a lot of dice rolls each round and a lot of states (Jammed/Not Jammed) would have to be kept track of. A perhaps less powerful option would be a Jammer Beam similar in function to the targeting effect of the R4. Which instead would disrupt the target until the end of the round. If given to a unit with stealth (or mobile attack), perhaps a "freelance commando" or something, this unit might even live to use the Jammer Beam again.


I like this idea. Jamming on an individual figure. However, now we are into the realm of creating stats, which none of us have control over. What some of us do have control over, and the rest of us can at least have input for, is the DCI Floor Rules, since Dean is quite open to ideas and suggestions from the entire community. So, if Rebels really are the problem, well, there's not much that we can do except wait for further sets to be released and see if they get balanced out. But IMO, at least at GenCon, the big reason why Rebels were powerful was the combination of the maps available, plus the cheap/free Ugos getting gambit and then evading anything that shot at them (not that NR w/ Wedge can't do that as well, it's just that Rebels did it better this year).

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:30 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
What some of us do have control over, and the rest of us can at least have input for, is the DCI Floor Rules, since Dean is quite open to ideas and suggestions from the entire community. So, if Rebels really are the problem, well, there's not much that we can do except wait for further sets to be released and see if they get balanced out. But IMO, at least at GenCon, the big reason why Rebels were powerful was the combination of the maps available, plus the cheap/free Ugos getting gambit and then evading anything that shot at them (not that NR w/ Wedge can't do that as well, it's just that Rebels did it better this year).


Agreed. While I certainly hope WotC does something soon to address the Rebel dominance, we as a community can make a contribution in the area of DCI rules, and I think we should. It's worth noting that Jim is also open to receving our input for the betterment of the game as well. I think we're blessed to have Jim and Dean, two men who care so deeply for the game and are working so hard and listening so carefully to help make it better. At the very least, I think we have to change which maps are legal. I'm eager to see how people respond to Billiv15's ideas too, because I think that most of them are right on the money.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:21 pm 
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eMouse wrote:
Nivuahc wrote:
eMouse wrote:
At the same time, you're creating an incentive for the two players to go in two different directions and not confront each other.



An incredibly small and terribly risky incentive.


I'm not sure why it would be terribly risky? Best strategy would be to try and put an override piece so that it can lock itself into either gambit, preferably my opponent's. The rest of the forces rush to my gambit to get points and pile on any units my opponent has sent to interfere.

Once I have a lead, I have no reason to leave my gambit zone.


In order to get to that Gambit zone you have to move through your opponents entire squad. All your opponent needs to do to negate your gambit scoring is to place a character of his own somewhere in the 2 rows along the edge of the map. Your opponent is already on that side of the map, doing so shouldn't be too difficult a task. And if it's on a map like train stations, it's almost not worth fighting for. As difficult a time as you would have getting one of your characters over to your opponents side of the map is how simple it would be for him to have one of his characters retreat on the top or bottom of the map.

I don't know... in my mind I see it as each player defending his side of the map, trying to keep the other player from advancing, and playing that much harder when their opponent gets a points lead.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:30 pm 
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Well, a good point somebody else made at one point though, is that Gambit is already dangerous enough to get on maps like Taris or Teth, that people rarely end up going for it. With your suggestion Chuck, it makes it even more dangerous and difficult. So, most of the time, people will revert to protecting their own gambit, and not bothering to try and get to their opponent's side.

However, this is how DDM did their 'victory zones' to some extent, I believe. The victory zone you had to get to was more on your opponent's side of the map. But their maps had the starting and victory zones defined directly on the map, which evidenced more of the cooperation between the R&D and cartography teams. We haven't had that with SWMs to date, so it would be retro-actively changing some of the existing maps, or something along those lines, in order to make it work.

And I agree with the others. Having the starting zone in the center of the map is a bit much. Would basically turn the game into Tile Wars, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:59 pm 
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Nivuahc wrote:
In order to get to that Gambit zone you have to move through your opponents entire squad.


That assumes the two sides placed their armies right next to each other. On a map like the transfer station, there's essentially three near-discreet zones that can be deployed into, top, middle and bottom. If my opponent chooses bottom, I'll go top, or something similar.

If he spreads out, I'll focus my force in one zone to get a numbers advantage.

If we're both clumped up right next to each other, then that presents new opportunities for first action abuse with explosive/area effect abilities. In your setup, who deploys second, and who goes first becomes way, way too powerful.

If there were no initiative control pieces, perhaps, but pieces like Thrawn and MTB would be insane on such a setup.


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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:38 pm 
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Whoever sets up second gets a really large advantage in that proposal.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:41 pm 
Death Star Designers
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i havent thought about this in any detail, but let me throw this out there. I like a couple of the design ideas, but as was said we have no control over that. What if we increased the set up zone? Instead of settign up in the first 4 rows you could now set up in the first 8-10? I have no idea what would be good, but the first round is usually a crap round anyway as the only thing that happens is people moving forward with any speed breakers making gambit.

Yes/no?

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:54 pm 
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That's a really good idea actually. It's not the whole solution, but shortening the field only helps melee. I remember way back when Korriban was released Rob asked if extending the setup areas would be enough to solve the problems with it favoring shooters/stealth/init so heavily but it really wasn't in that isolated case even if it would have been an improvement. Worth thinking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:02 pm 
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We could say that all characters can now start 8-10 (something) squares or maybe say if a character is melee it can start X squares ahead, while shooters stick with 4? Just throwing ideas out.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:16 am 
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Another "solution" to the Rebel dominance would be a (Fringe) mini with a mimic ability. It could be used to copy any CEs and or abilities on any (enemy) mini on the map. Of course this mini would be a little more expensive, but if its stats aren't too good, it should do the job without being to abusive on the damage dealer minis (who would want his Grand Master Luke being copied by some darn Fringe mini? ;) ).

Also cheap (non-unique) Disruptive minis would do the trick. Move them forward and give Smuggler/Snowspeeder what they deserve! :D

On a sidenote: It is good to be back! 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:55 am 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
We could say that all characters can now start 8-10 (something) squares or maybe say if a character is melee it can start X squares ahead, while shooters stick with 4? Just throwing ideas out.



This is precisely what I thought when I read your first post above!

Pieces with the Melee Attack SA may start up to 8 squares from the edge of the map. All others must start within 4 squares. Would even help Huge pieces like the Rancors. :D

This is definitely an interesting twist.... :D

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:32 am 
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I think it would give melee a huge (it's a pun) boost. I like the idea.
But with smart play on almost any map, in 4 or 5 activations you can be in the opponenets starting area.

Only concern is with republic movement breaks, in two rounds Doombot can tow up a scrub, panaka can swap in Kota/Roroon and blast the starting area. And there are plenty of republic figs that have the hp to do such a thing that would fit into that kind of build. Granted no other faction could accomplishthat, but no other faction has that kind of repulse off the bat. And Roroon can repulse right out of the gate. (Kota takes 3 rounds to reach his repulse so he's less liekly) 30 damage repulse into a starting group that likely hasn't activated yet is not a fun proposition. And Roroon is cheap enough to be expendable on that kind of endevour. And override on doombot makes this even more of a possiblity.

Empire could also possibly, but you would use a different combo and it'd be with fringe area effect which isn't nearly as top of the line as the republics. Other wise you'd need to wait a time for VAU to amp up, and or spend an act on throne palp, which hurts the idea because the bomb needs to go off in the first 4 or 5 activations for the best effect. Also the lack of override hinders this as well in terms of activation count and movement.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:47 am 
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dalsiandon wrote:
I think it would give melee a huge (it's a pun) boost. I like the idea.
But with smart play on almost any map, in 4 or 5 activations you can be in the opponenets starting area.

Only concern is with republic movement breaks, in two rounds Doombot can tow up a scrub, panaka can swap in Kota/Roroon and blast the starting area. And there are plenty of republic figs that have the hp to do such a thing that would fit into that kind of build. Granted no other faction could accomplishthat, but no other faction has that kind of repulse off the bat. And Roroon can repulse right out of the gate. (Kota takes 3 rounds to reach his repulse so he's less liekly) 30 damage repulse into a starting group that likely hasn't activated yet is not a fun proposition. And Roroon is cheap enough to be expendable on that kind of endevour. And override on doombot makes this even more of a possiblity.

Empire could also possibly, but you would use a different combo and it'd be with fringe area effect which isn't nearly as top of the line as the republics. Other wise you'd need to wait a time for VAU to amp up, and or spend an act on throne palp, which hurts the idea because the bomb needs to go off in the first 4 or 5 activations for the best effect. Also the lack of override hinders this as well in terms of activation count and movement.



Doombot does not have Melee Attack, so the above suggestion wouldn't make any change for him. :P Maybe would make a difference for Yoda on Kybuck, or possibly other swap squads, but the majority of Imperial squads use non-Melee pieces (Troopers) for Swap fodder. I guess the new Imp Dignitaries would allow easier swapping, but I really don't see that as being that much of a problem.

And if someone wants to Roron Repulse on Round 1, they can already do that with a simple R2-Tow + Yobuck + Panaka swap. You can reach any square on the map on round 1 with Yobuck + R2 right now anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:52 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
dalsiandon wrote:
I think it would give melee a huge (it's a pun) boost. I like the idea.
But with smart play on almost any map, in 4 or 5 activations you can be in the opponenets starting area.

Only concern is with republic movement breaks, in two rounds Doombot can tow up a scrub, panaka can swap in Kota/Roroon and blast the starting area. And there are plenty of republic figs that have the hp to do such a thing that would fit into that kind of build. Granted no other faction could accomplishthat, but no other faction has that kind of repulse off the bat. And Roroon can repulse right out of the gate. (Kota takes 3 rounds to reach his repulse so he's less liekly) 30 damage repulse into a starting group that likely hasn't activated yet is not a fun proposition. And Roroon is cheap enough to be expendable on that kind of endevour. And override on doombot makes this even more of a possiblity.

Empire could also possibly, but you would use a different combo and it'd be with fringe area effect which isn't nearly as top of the line as the republics. Other wise you'd need to wait a time for VAU to amp up, and or spend an act on throne palp, which hurts the idea because the bomb needs to go off in the first 4 or 5 activations for the best effect. Also the lack of override hinders this as well in terms of activation count and movement.



Doombot does not have Melee Attack, so the above suggestion wouldn't make any change for him. :P Maybe would make a difference for Yoda on Kybuck, or possibly other swap squads, but the majority of Imperial squads use non-Melee pieces (Troopers) for Swap fodder. I guess the new Imp Dignitaries would allow easier swapping, but I really don't see that as being that much of a problem.

And if someone wants to Roron Repulse on Round 1, they can already do that with a simple R2-Tow + Yobuck + Panaka swap. You can reach any square on the map on round 1 with Yobuck + R2 right now anyways.


Okay, so there is possibility for this, and R2 and Yobuck are the best bets then. This doesn't decrease the validity of my arugment any then.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:38 am 
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I don't think that it will be a good idea to enlarge the starting area. What do we achieve by it? Ranged minis probably won't be played anymore. Also melee figs like the Ugs will run into gambit and score points. Great deal that helps the game!

Letting Reinforcements not score gambit points is one of the ideas that I can appreciate since it is really abusive to score with them.

Setting up next to each other doesn't help the game at all. It makes it too melee heavy and kills tactics. The day I have to set up next to my opponent I quit playing SWM. The reason why I never even thought about playing WOW minis is that the map is to small and gives nearly no tactical element to the game.

Let's face it. The only problems that we really have right now are Rebel dominance and a map issue (especially Monastery). To a lesser extent it is problematic that not all factions are playable. That's about it.

I have no desire to play melee only squads just because ranged squads have been put to a disadvantage. In general ranged minis have low def and fewer hit points than melee beatsticks. This wouldn't be a problem at all, if a certain faction didn't have everything in the game to stop melee (Disruptive, Flight and Speed 16, multiple Override, free attacks, etc.).

Of course a melee only squad doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell against a Snowspeeder, just because it can't reach it. At our tournament yesterday we had a guy who played Vong. He had no chance whatsoever to even get close to the Snowspeeder. Setting up 8 squares in to the map won't suffice either.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:11 am 
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Melee setting up closer has two advantages. One is that it will hopefully reduce some time off that first round. To be honest i would be happy with all figs getting to set up 8 squares in as the first couple rounds are just positioning anyway. Either way restricting the set up just causes more delay. Heck why isnt it the first 2-3 rows then? Im also not for adjacent set ups.

The second is to hopefully give the melee a chance to engage sooner. It will have no effect on eliminating shooters.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:31 am 
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IMHO most factions have the possibility to reach the enemy squad in 1-2 rounds anyway, so no change is really needed.

Empire:
Thrawn swap

Sith:
Exar Kun
Sidious swap

Rebels:
K-3PO
Snowspeeder
Princess Leia (run full speed and attack)
Han in STA

Republic:
Doombot
Yobuck
Panaka
The Dark Woman
General Kenobi
Master Speed in general
CW Padmé (run full speed and attack)

Separatists:
Lancer
Pawn of the Dark Side

New Republic doesn't really need a mini to make them quicker (GMLS is fast enough anyway) since they have Evade and Mandalorians are shooters anyway. So only 2 factions lack abilities to get them safely to the enemy squad: Old Republic and Vong, though Vong have their armors.

Every faction has access to Jarael and the TBSV. Especially New Republic and Rebels can abuse the latter though Rebels lack multiple attack characters.

I see no need to change the starting areas whatsoever. If you want to be fast, you can be fast.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:05 pm 
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But there is a huge difference between 1-2 pieces reaching the enemy and getting your entire melee squad there. People are not going to send a single piece into enemy territory by itself unless the squad is designed to to that.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:52 pm 
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But that isn't the idea of the game. If a melee squad reaches a non-melee squad with all pieces, it wins. The game should be a little more balanced towards melee, yes, but it is no use to unbalance it towards melee.

At my LGS we are hoping since years for a new rule that all lightsaber minis have a LS Deflect. For those who have it printed on their card it is 1 as it already is, for others it is 2 Force points. This way a Jedi squad would have a better chance of resisting a shooter squad.

The main problem though is that so many shooters already have twin and double twin. It is absurd that a 28 point Dash Rendar has double, twin and greater mobile. He isn't even a major character in the movies or novels. But nonetheless the mini exists and constantly kills melee beatsticks.

A rules change would be in order to help melee minis, not letting them set up 4 squares more into the map.

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 Post subject: Re: Has the 150 point game become Rebels only?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:01 pm 
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I don't think letting melee set up four more squares further out than non-melee will tip the balance in favor of melee. Try playing a couple of matches where melee can set up 8 out, and non-melee 4 out. You will see it does not create that big of a difference in the outcome of the match. The change would only slightly help the melee pieces, non-melee will still have the advantage.


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