I think this is where thinking gets REALLY dangerous. The OR isn't a terrible faction, it is just terrible when you consider high level Meta.

I would say the issues with the games won't be fixed by fixing game mechanics, but fixing the products in the first place. Instead of trying to attack a symptom, go for the disease.

What is that disease? Cost disparity between figures in factions, both with figure to figure comparison and overall faction synergy.

Gambit is fine the way it is.

Let's compare a few things really quickly:

OR Commanders:

Exile 49 (No defensive capability, range restricted)
OR Captain 19 (Incredibly restrictive Squad Assault power, granted he was the first one to grant it so I can see how it went wrong)
Nomi 41 (You can't really call it a CE even though it is, almost never gets used)
Bastila (BM is nigh irrelevent, and Valor can be had for half the cost in Jolee Bindo)

Rebel Commanders:

Dodonna (Only non-penalty having Tempo Control figure)

Rieekan (I don't believe I need to go in this, but no range on his CE)

Leia (Currently the only figure that both grants stat bonuses and can be used anyone in the faction (non-Droid obviously. Imperial Officer and Padme Senator are MUCH more restrictive)

Bothan Noble (Probably the single worst idea and execution for a CE in this game, worse than Rieekan sometimes)

Han STA (Has entire Squad builds to his credit)

Han, RH (A little outdated but still impressive)

Madine/RCSL (See Deri's Squad for Madine)



Cheap Tech:

OR:

Juggernaut War Droid, only figure in the game with Shatterbeam.


Rebel:

Juno/Deena
Dodonna
R2(s)
ERCs-Uncommons with Override, and good ones at that
There are far more examples.




The issue isn't changing game mechanics to fit the meta, it's balancing the figures in the Meta that will ultimately balance the game IMO.

Going at the means instead of the end won't help, especially when the GOWK uproar occured, the Speeder Era is back, and Cannon Squads got a huge leg up with Rieekan.

Solution right now would be to wait. Everyone wants to change things and it's 3 days after GenCon. We have virtually no idea what GaW, Dark Times, and Jedi Masters could do for the game considering it took all of 1 starter to completely change the Meta (IE GOWK).



My argument if 200 is the new Championship format is to unban GOWK at that level and that level alone and keep him the way he is. Only there is there enough of a shot for squads like Droids, Sith, Mandos, even OR in some cases to compete let alone Rebels with all their tricks as well as NR and even other Republic squads.

It isn't my opinion that GOWK shouldn't be 100% neutered in 200. I would bring him back these ways in 200:

1)He is around 65 points (10 points in 150 mean a WORLD of difference).

2) Remove Mettle. MOTF2 and Soresu aren't the issue it's the 98.5% chance of negating one that isn't. That number tumbles significantly and GOWK would burn through his FPs a LOT faster if he doesn't have the Mettle.

For 150, it would be a quick fix IMO:

Make SSM Non-Melee Attacks (So he does what Soresu is supposed to do, stop blasters at any range), Remove Mettle, then Errata him to have Lightsaber Block instead of Knight Speed. I realize making him basically super Kol isn't a great idea but if Melee is going to make a comback GOWK needs to be able to be damage by Melee, and damage consistently. I know those are 2 huge changes but overall I don't think it would be end of the world for him to negate Blaster fire at a high rate, that's the point of Soresu.

Joelker41 - The point of Soresu is to stop any attack, not just blasters. I understand what you're trying to do, and if it gets changed it gets changed, but that won't match the 'intent' of Soresu.

I dont think so. Loda has a huge problem against melee, and with Luke and others being run in 200, i dont think Loda would be a problem at all.

200 is well balanced because you can bring melee, but still have room to pack in some shooters as back up.

Just to pipe up on the GOWK debate... I still lean towards replacing SSM with basic Soresu. It's canon, it's (at least mostly) balanced, and it'd be nice to have some shooter-hating beats instead of melee-hating beats all the time.

This is something we talked about and I am pretty convinced it to be true. 10 points cuts one of the 2 major support pieces out of the GOWK squads. I think gowk may not even be tier 1 at 65 points.

To chime in here, I would rather see it stay at 150 (even with a restricted map list), although a couple thoughts I had are what if we just changed Dodonna? He seems to be making the rebels what they are? Are the rebels that good if they don't have the tempo control?

What if for Dodonna you had to choose at the beginning of the match and it stayed that way the entire match (1 or 2) instead of choosing each phase? I almost believe that the problem with the rebels is the access to the cheap activation control that also lets you speed up when it is beneficial. Take that away and I am not sure the rebels are as dominant (at least the Speeder cannon builds).

So for me its 150 all the way. I like the emphasis on squadbuilding as you have to choose between tech and beats where in 200 you get both. Also I think the time issue would be even worse in 200 as there were plenty of matches that went to time in the champs.

Just because a game goes to time isnt always an evil. While i have seen more 200 game go to time, i also see more fighting and killing in 200. Hardly if ever have i seen a 200pt game be won 15-5. Besides when you start talking big tourneys like Gencon or regionals you are going to see more games going to time anyway because every one is more cautious, so im not sure it really makes that much of a difference.

My humble idea, after reading a good bit of this discussion, the other discussions, and talking to Jim about the possibility of moving the championship to 200 points....

As a TO, the idea of 200 point games being standard is a bit of a nightmare. When our group plays on Sundays we're almost always being run out of the store at closing, even when we're playing 150 and most of our games are finishing before time. So I got to thinking about ways to speed things up in 200 and this is what I've got:



Player 1 is yellow, Player 2 is red. The wide band in the middle is the setup area (5 rows from center) and the narrow band on the maps edge (2 rows in) is the gambit area. Each player has a gambit area on their opponents side of the map so, in order to score gambit, you'll have to advance to the other side. If gambit is contested (your opponent has a character in your gambit area) you score no gambit points.

This would pitch both players into battle as soon as that first initiative is rolled. Things like Disruptive would work nearly right out of the gate. Who sets up first, how they setup, and things such as interference, positioning, and strategy become far more crucial. Commanders would no longer be able to be locked away in relative safety... you'd have to use an activation to move them off of the front lines. In order to score gambit, you have to fight your way through the enemy combatants and, even then, your opponent can defend against it by putting one of their own characters there. They do so at the risk of your gambit scoring figure attacking them, which would encourage less non-attacking gambit pieces like diplomats and mouse droids.

I imagine that, with that type of setup, even a 200 point game would finish in well under 1 hour. Playing games to a "kill 'em all" finish would be more common, and players would be rewarded for playing well, not just because they have speed on their side. It would give a boost to melee characters and I believe it would actually be quite fun.

Anyway, feel free to toss this idea to the side if it seems a few cards short of a full deck. I've been thinking about this for the past couple of days and this is what I've come up with.

As I observed most of the good players rely on the Rebels. Other players use different types of squads because they don't expect to have a tournament winning chance anyway. So the "problem" are the "pro gamers" that constantly battle for victory. At Gen Con and at the german nationals there were 7 out of 8 squads in the top 8 Rebel builds. In Germany 4 of them were Cannon squads, at Gen Con it were 5 I believe.

The huge problem with the Rebels is that their commanders are so awfully cheap (both in cost and style). Not only is Dodonna more useful in dictating the pace of the game than San, Ozzel, Tarkin or Veed (who actually designed this total failure of a mini?), but he is also cheaper.

The same goes for Rieekan. He and Dodonna together cost as much as General Wedge on his own, his CEs being even better than Wedge's because he works for allies and not only followers. So basically you get Dodonna for FREE!

Next in line of cheap commanders is Leia. Compare her to Padmé. I would choose Leia anytime over Padmé because she also grants +10 damage and works on (Rebel) followers as well. She is the true power behind the Cannon squads. Take away Dodonna and you will play Han Scoundrel instead of the Smuggler. That was a tournament winning squad last year at Gen Con! Leia lets you run full speed and then make that nasty extra attack.

To make things even better we have 5 Rebel pieces with Disruptive. The most expensive costs 18 points and has Override!

So basically the Rebels have a great advantage over all factions in terms of commanders. Right now the game drifts towards "Rebel only", but you can still beat them ( at least on the right map). I just finished a match against a Smuggler Cannon squad and emerged victorious. It is tough though and a lot of casual players might be annoyed by the direction where the game is heading.

My solution: Cheap Fringe commanders, that have tempo control, let you make free attacks and maybe even give you Evade/Mobile!

This way the game will be well balanced again and shooters will have a tough time hitting the advancing melee pieces that are otherwise shot to bits. Also we will see a greater variety of squads and factions at the tournaments.

What I DON'T want is 200 to be the new DCI format or they give us something like 75 to 80 minutes per game because usually the close matches never go to the end before time is up. I don't know how many (200 points) games I have won or lost by time out, but it were A LOT.

Just my 2 cents though.

First activation would become incredibly important.

At the same time, you're creating an incentive for the two players to go in two different directions and not confront each other.

An incredibly small and terribly risky incentive.

Hey IKG, great to see you posting again!

I agree that the primary reason for Rebel dominance at 150 is cheap Rebel tech. And yes, tempo control is the main thing. It is very, very difficult for a non-tempo-control squad to compete nowadays. When you add Rieeken to the mix, it just gets disgusting.

But, perhaps rather than adding in a whole bunch of cheap evade/mobile/tempo-control fringe commanders, maybe find a way to hinder squads that play those cheap CEs. And given that virtually everyone agrees that Battle Meditation is useless, we could create a new version of Battle Meditation:

Greater Battle Meditation: (Force 4; replaces turn) Enemy commander effects do not work for the opponent's squad, but work for your squad instead. This ability may be continued at a cost of 1 force point per turn; if the character chooses not to continue the Battle Meditation, he must spend the 4 force points if he wishes to use it again.

As written, this would have to be on a character with Force Renewal 1, and that character should probably have semi-decent stats and basic offensive abilities (maybe double attack with a lightsaber and +9) but nothing special. Cost around 30-40 points or so, the reason being that most 150 squads spend around 30-40 pts on commanders (Rebels, anyway).

If Battle Meditation was so powerful that the Sith and Old Republic fought like crazy over Bastila because of her battle meditation, then it only makes sense that Battle Meditation is actually worth using in a game.

Oh yeah...and this character could not appear in the Rebel faction! It would fit better in the OR, perhaps with a new Bastila or someone else who had BM in canon.


So I guess in the end I think that what really needs to happen in order for other factions to catch up to the Rebels is that the other factions need to get some tech of their own which can either counter or nerf the tech of the Rebels.

Hey to you,too!

That would be too powerful I think. Maybe if it was a 2 points Force Power with Force Renewal of 1 to counter a CE or even better, you have to sacrifice a mini to trigger that ability, it would be more balanced. Cancelling all CEs over the field wouldn't do the game any good because then it leads to all beatstick squads.

Also by cheap Fringe minis I don't mean 9-11 points, but maybe 14 or 15 points or put it on a playable beatstick or support shooter/melee mini. The problem of the game so far is that certain factions are highly competitive while others are never used (Sith, for example). The goal should be to make all factions playable. The quickest even if not the most beautiful way to ensure this are Fringe characters. Make them a little more expensive than the faction bound minis and you have a good alternative.

Lobot and the Ug helped with Override, MTB with init control, the Mouse expanded the CEs in a slightly less powerful way than Mas and Dash is the new semi-beatstick available for all. I think that Fringe characters help the game more than they hurt it.

Without going into full Custom mode, I think we may see such abilities that will counter the slowly dominating abilities of GMA, Evade, etc.

If it's via commander effect:
Signal Jammer
Fringe:
Cost: 20
HPs: 40
Def: 15
Atk: 0
Dam: 0

SA:
Droid
Emplacement
Communication Jammer: Once initiative is determined, each enemy commanders must roll a save of 11 or lose commander effect for the round.

Talk about a Lobot Reinforcement.

SAs:
Cryoban Grenade: Replaces Attacks, Range 6, Save 11. Damage 10; Target character and each adjacent character are considered activated. Characters lose abilities and force powers that prevent damage (Evade, Lightsaber Deflect, SA) for the round.

Adhesive Grenade: Same as above but won't take damage.

Sorry, I have been playing too much KotOR lately and missing my stalwart Cryoban and Adhesive grenades

As for greater mobile, I would believe more "intelligent weapons" like the Kouhoun Infestation could become common place like Guided Missles. Granted, that may become far fetched.

Oppo Rancisis would be perfect - but that would give it to the republic, and they don't need it. I agree - give it to the OR

Yes, I like to live on the dangerous side

What you are suggesting would be the best solution, but will never happen. What it amounts to is waiting for the minor factions to receive the support they need to become competitive. In the case of the Old Republic, we've been waiting for 3 years for that to happen. The 2 expansions with the best chances of pulling it off (KotOR and Jedi Academy) failed to do so. What makes you think anything is going to change anytime soon? I don't think the Old Republic is going to get another shot until Masters of the Force at earliest, by which time the Rebels will have likely gotten more love in Dark Times and possibly Galaxy at War.

The thing is, as IKG said, the problem is with the high level meta/competitive scene. When SWM is all about casual gamers getting together to have a few games, there's no problem. For the casual gamers, factions like the Old Republic and Mandalorians are perfectly fine right now. However, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if it were not for the competitive tournament scene.

I admit the faction handicap concept isn't fully fleshed out at the moment, and I'm not totally convinced that using gambit as a means of providing the handicap is the best idea, but it's the start of an idea. Some potential modifications:

- as I mentioned, Fringe pieces cannot score gambit. In some ways this is similar to the idea that I've seen posted for Reinforcement pieces not to be able to score gambit (I think it's billiv15 who was championing that idea?). I think making Fringe unable to score gambit is a neater solution, which doesn't require tracking which Ugaught came in from Lobot, and which Ugnaught is part of your squad (although that still needs to be done for victory points calculations anyway, which I find annoying...).

With this change, the only figures that could allow for "free gambit grabbers" are Nute Gunray, Wat Tambor and Garm Bel Iblis. It'd be crazy to see a meta where Wat Tambor with 3pt Battle Droids is competitive.

This change would also encourage players to be more faction pure, and provides a drawback to running Ugnaughts/Mouse Droids/Caamasi as cheap filler. Competitive squads would need to be modified, so that either your faction pure damage dealers/commanders can sit in gambit, or you add in some cheap faction pure gambit grabbers.

- instead of a faction handicap, it could be a "figure handicap". Some sort of handicap can be applied to your squad when running figures on the handicap list. This could include Rieekan, Dodonna, etc. It's one step short of banning figures.

I don't think the solution to these issues is going to come from new figures, or new special abilities. We can't just sit back and hope that the "Rebel counter" is coming. Even if we do eventually get a "counter tempo control" figure, do you want to have to run it in every squad? Dodonna is only 9pts, it's a cheap spend even if you think he might get countered. The counter figure would need to be very cheap too.

This is probably a stupid idea but change Rieekan's faction to fringe, even though it doesn't fit his character. It would go a long way towards balancing the factions and hopefully the other factions will catch up in time and he can be changed back to rebel.

I like the Jammer idea. Though from a practical standpoint there would in games with many commanders probably be necessary to make a lot of dice rolls each round and a lot of states (Jammed/Not Jammed) would have to be kept track of. A perhaps less powerful option would be a Jammer Beam similar in function to the targeting effect of the R4. Which instead would disrupt the target until the end of the round. If given to a unit with stealth (or mobile attack), perhaps a "freelance commando" or something, this unit might even live to use the Jammer Beam again.

Well it was my general hope and prayer that Palps on the Throne was going to have greater disruptive (range of 12)....

I would love to see like the Imps and Old Republic get that Special Ability

Good to see ya Padraig.

I'm not sure why it would be terribly risky? Best strategy would be to try and put an override piece so that it can lock itself into either gambit, preferably my opponent's. The rest of the forces rush to my gambit to get points and pile on any units my opponent has sent to interfere.

Once I have a lead, I have no reason to leave my gambit zone.