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Teth Monastary, here or there?
Yes, keep it Sanctioned! 42%  42%  [ 16 ]
No, Begone evil Map! 58%  58%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 38

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 Post subject: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:52 pm 
Jedi Battlemaster
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For DCI sanctioned play, whats your opinion on the Teth Monastery map?

I've heard some people say it pretty abusable, while others have stated that it's an okay map.

What do you think?

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Awsome map i think :!: I need to do more playtesting through :? :?:

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:35 am 
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I asked Nivauhc to put it in his Mapexlporer for me,and once I took a look at in that, it wasn't as bad as it first seemed. Abusable by speedy cannons, no doubt there. A player losing to this map against a speedy cannon squad can A: choose the left side of the map, which is the most beneficial side for Speedy Cannon, or defer and try to set up based on where the speedy cannon is placed.

Against all other squads, I found that a lot of the action can be avoided until the center of the map, but it can make for a very slooow game sometimes if no one can get to gambit safely. I end up using an ugo as my last activation to swing around into gambit, but that just makes for a 5-3 game. Still forces your opponent to do something...

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:08 am 
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Ban it! Ban it! Now that GOWK is banned, I'm ban-happy! Ban the map! And ban Ugnaughts! :P

Seriously though, I said it should "begone." While it's not as bad as Mustafar, it is still totally abusable, and therefore ought to be banned. DCI maps should at least be playable for all squad types, if not fair for most (I'm dreaming, I know). I think it's sad when the map roll plays such a huge role in deciding the outcome of a match.

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:14 am 
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It should never have been added to the list. We'll suffer through GenCon with it, and then afterward we need to pitch it.

EDIT: Just went back and read the other comments. The first time I saw this map, I thought of Mustafar, too. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:30 am 
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Yes ban it! Spend all your time focused on this one evil map that way you spend less time looking at Taris... 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:33 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
It should never have been added to the list. We'll suffer through GenCon with it, and then afterward we need to pitch it.

EDIT: Just went back and read the other comments. The first time I saw this map, I thought of Mustafar, too. I'm glad I'm not the only one.


Not that you were accusing Dean of doing anything wrong here, but before someone else does, I will say this.

The alternative was Dean submitting a Floor Rules update with GOWK Banned, and with 1/10 maps released by WotC in 2008-9 being made legal. In particular, several that were already on the list would have been removed. It wasn't something he liked doing at all, but you can only tackle so many issues at once, and Dean made the right choice I believe.

With that said, it's pretty obvious Teth is a terribly abusive map with the right squad design. It together with the Speedy is the Gatekeeper this year at 150.

Teth isn't the only problem map though, as most of us know, Taris, Rattattack, new Muun all have similar problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:34 am 
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Boba52 wrote:
Yes ban it! Spend all your time focused on this one evil map that way you spend less time looking at Taris... 8-)

Way to miss the point completely. One terrible map should not be kept on the list just because there are other terrible maps. Give us more credit than that, that we aren't ignoring the problems of Taris.....

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:37 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Way to miss the point completely.


Way to miss my point completely in that I like Taris and realize it's clock is ticking to oblivion. Tick Tock Tick Tock...

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:43 am 
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Boba52 wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Way to miss the point completely.


Way to miss my point completely in that I like Taris and realize it's clock is ticking to oblivion. Tick Tock Tick Tock...


How could I possible get that from your previous post :)

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:55 am 
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Heh, well, if Chris West's Exodus-Class Cruiser map is anything to judge the last 2 maps from Map Pack 3 by, I think I'll be perfectly fine with banning Teth and then adding those last 2 maps for the future going forward. Taris and Muun Commerce Plaza may have to go at some point as well, though I think both of those are a bit less abusive than Teth Monastery. The Monastery is just such a bottleneck if you end up on the 'entrance' side, and there's really not much you can do about it, which is the sad part.

Personally, I've played 1 game on Teth so far, and it was a sealed game, so I'm not sold on it one way or the other right now. The thought ot the Snowspeeder on that map scares the heck out of me though, hence why I chose my map against both Ruhk and TINT on Saturday night, lol. It definitely favors the Snowspeeder, no matter which side of the map it starts on, IMO. However, when it comes to Gencon, the first few rounds could be real game changers, as the map roll could make or break this squad, IMO. Neither Tint or Ruhk would have beat me on my own map on Saturday night if I hadn't played so cautious with Lobot (he was hiding from Ugnaughts, which was unnecessary). So, there's a part of me that still feels that the mere fact that you could lose map 50% of the time should keep people in check from building strictly to abuse these maps. However, it's the problem that Speedy Cannon type squads can uniquely abuse Teth, but still be competitive on almost every other map. I definitely see how that can be problematic. Needs more play-testing to formulate my final opinion, but frankly, if I had to vote today, I'd probably say "begone" with it. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:05 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
It should never have been added to the list. We'll suffer through GenCon with it, and then afterward we need to pitch it.

EDIT: Just went back and read the other comments. The first time I saw this map, I thought of Mustafar, too. I'm glad I'm not the only one.


Not that you were accusing Dean of doing anything wrong here, but before someone else does, I will say this.


No, I'm not. Dean is in a tough spot with this crap. He and I have already talked about this on the phone a few times. I was so enamored with the thought of DD making it into the floor rules that I really didn't pay that much attention to the other chatter about the maps. In hindsight, maybe I should have. I might have warned him about the danger of removing Christophosis at the same time as banning GOWK.

Quite frankly, after seeing West's new map he is going to sell at GenCon, I am very alarmed about the map design process at WotC. Clearly he CAN design a map that is balanced for skirmish play, and the only reason that I can see that he hasn't done so in the last few attempts is because they are not "pretty" or "aesthetically pleasing" or some other line of bullshit. That is not his fault, I blame WotC and specifically the art director for that - though I have no idea who that person actually is. The person who approves or disproves decisions about the map needs a course in game design 101, right after being told these maps are being made for a GAME.

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:09 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
Heh, well, if Chris West's Exodus-Class Cruiser map is anything to judge the last 2 maps from Map Pack 3 by, I think I'll be perfectly fine with banning Teth and then adding those last 2 maps for the future going forward. Taris and Muun Commerce Plaza may have to go at some point as well, though I think both of those are a bit less abusive than Teth Monastery. The Monastery is just such a bottleneck if you end up on the 'entrance' side, and there's really not much you can do about it, which is the sad part.


The thing a lot of players don't think about - and the realization of this fact separates the amateur from the amazing - is that when you pick a map to go with your squad, if it's going to be one like Teth Monastery, you MUST be able to win from the "bad" side. Some maps don't have true good and bad sides, but I agree with you that Teth Monastery does. That is why Bill (correctly) points to Rieekan's Snowspeeder on Teth Monastery as a "gatekeeper" squad. With R2 and Lobot, it can lock the enemy down behind both doors, and stall the game for a couple of rounds, just long enough to position for an overwhelming strike. It can do this from the bottleneck point, even. And in a mirror match, the game is 99% determined by the map roll.

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:30 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
The thing a lot of players don't think about - and the realization of this fact separates the amateur from the amazing - is that when you pick a map to go with your squad, if it's going to be one like Teth Monastery, you MUST be able to win from the "bad" side. Some maps don't have true good and bad sides, but I agree with you that Teth Monastery does.
Woohoo! QFT! Speeder squads are great from the right side. If you were planning to run it, you assume you will always be on the right, as most smart opponents will have no choice but to pick the left. Of course the same was true when I abused Starship last year, which wasn't as abusive, but the same concept. In that case, I used setting up second as my way of overcoming the "bad" side. In truth, it's probably more comparable to Geonosis and Broken Boba, as setting up first turn kill shots isn't as easy, but setting up to all but ensure a win is much easier by round 2. Speeder will be ahead 5-0, and the opponent will be up near the doors at best in most cases. If they moved appropriately, the speeder squad will be very tough to defeat. There are squads that can do it, but you will have a much better time if you win map and play something like Bespin :)

Grand Moff Boris wrote:
That is why Bill (correctly) points to Rieekan's Snowspeeder on Teth Monastery as a "gatekeeper" squad. With R2 and Lobot, it can lock the enemy down behind both doors, and stall the game for a couple of rounds, just long enough to position for an overwhelming strike. It can do this from the bottleneck point, even. And in a mirror match, the game is 99% determined by the map roll.
I am not convinced the mirror is so one sided. More than likely, the game will be decided by who gets the first big kill in that case. Who fails evades, who bases for a quick kill and gets it or doesn't, etc. Slow Cannon has more risks than Speedy Cannon had, because of it's lower number of attacks, and lower attack ratings overall. But the person with the left does have a pretty strong positional advantage regardless in that, so I get what you are saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:07 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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Sadly I feel I must address this issue here.

I was kind of hoping that this would not come up until after Gencon but you guys always prove to be shrewder and wiser than given credit for being.

I was kind of in a tough spot this last floor rules update. Personally I did not want Teth being legal. For those of you who know me on a personal level I told you that out of 6 maps only 1 was acceptable in my estimation.

I also knew that I was in a tough spot with banning Gowk and banning Christosis. Raatattack Arena is somewhat acceptable but certainly not great. I imagine it will have the ability to stay legal and just be one of those maps that no one plays.

Teth on the other hand is a terrible map even though there are tons of people that own the map and think it is great. Some comments I have seen in this thread are shocking to me. Like the hatred of the Teth Monastary but thinking Teth Courtyard was good. Really both maps suck. I will tell you and some already know this. I fully intend to take Teth off the legal list next update. I knew this when making it legal but I felt I would have been hung by a rope from a tree by the community if I had banned it. This last floor rules update was huge for the game and it was a defining moment for us as a community of competitive players.

I realize this map is horrid and please know that you really dont have to persuade me to get rid of it. If you ask around I knew this was coming. I am not the complete moron I sometimes appear to be. That being said I think the last update we were able to tell Wizards that we own this game. We made a well informed stand and they followed our lead which I think is as a defining a moment for us as when we took our stand after PAx.

I hope you guys understand I did not blindly allow this to happen. Most folks on the boards thought both maps were ok. It wont take them long to figure out how wrong they were.

Anyways my 10 year old is at home acting like an horses ass so I have offcially lost my entire train of thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:12 pm 
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oh and one other point.

If you kind of turned Teth into a grid map and took away the artistry. It would frightening how similar it is to the Ossus map.

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:13 pm 
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heh, that's a good point Dean. It does remind me of Ossus!

Since this seems to be an actual interesting topic, I've changed the format of the poll so that you can change your vote if you'd like. I demanding swaying arguments from all now!

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:10 am 
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Glad we can change our votes. I ran it through mapexplorer a couple more times realized I missed a few things the first time, by round two there are only 4 safe spots on the right side of the map. The only advantage here is setting up second, but that will only net you another round for your opponent to manuever IF he sets up poorly.

Ban it,

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:04 am 
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I said drop it -- provisionally. I would use it for a "Dynamic Duo" match, though.
The reason why I would drop is, it is way too open in the center (a la Mustafar and Ossus). Although it is playable if you keep to the edges -- even moreso than Mustafar. Like others have said, to play on this map, you definitely need some type of "door control". This map is a favorite at my venue. I've seen it all, from playing the "lock out game" to an all-out battle royale in the center of the map. Even sneaking around the sides to flank the other guy. I do see The Dark Woman having a little fun on this map. Not as much fun as she would have in the Rancor Pit, though.
On a lighter note about this map, The players here hate how the creators had to label everything. Could they have left the alcoves alone? We, as intelligent beings, know what they are. We don't need the obvious to be labeled.

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 Post subject: Re: Teth Monastery, stay or go
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:06 pm 
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I like it and hate it at the same time. It is very difficult to play, either side. I have to say the entry way is the harder of the sides, but I think it's a lack of time spent on it too.

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