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 Post subject: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:44 pm 
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So I have started to really have some fun with the new Vong. I keep seeign them working well with a number of the presisting Vong. SUre I hate that the Warrior ruling is the way it is, otherwise I'd be putting a Subaltern with the Pratorite warriors and hoping for a double cunning twin. But oh well.

I have designed a few very common squad ideas, as I've seen several similar builds about. But I'm curious as to how many of us are actually gonna attempt to field the Vong in a tourny. Do they have enough actual damage output? It all looks so situation, and hard to build for from what i see. Is it worth a shot? Or does conventional tactics win out?

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:03 pm 
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I do believe I may try out a Vong squad tonight at the LGS. We'll see. I haven't quite settled on what build I like the best yet. Some of the possible options are astounding though. All 3 of the JA Vong pieces are GREAT additions to the faction.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 2:28 pm 
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the issues the vong have is that they have difficulty getting 1st round gambit on a lot of maps.

You are usually stuck with Lobot for override and fodder which takes up points and leaves a liability on the board.

Disruptive hurts a lot of vong teams.

I havn't come up with a competitive gameplan i like with the Vong, particulally these days where they can be easily outactivated and out gunned.

You are also stuck with which of the booster pieces to use, Shaper or Priest. Both are weak and don't bring anything other than shaper and Scar.

In a kill 'em all game, the vong are tough as bricks. In a timed tourney competition they often struggle to make up the points they lose on approach.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:10 am 
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fingersandteeth wrote:
the issues the vong have is that they have difficulty getting 1st round gambit on a lot of maps.

You are usually stuck with Lobot for override and fodder which takes up points and leaves a liability on the board.

Disruptive hurts a lot of vong teams.

I havn't come up with a competitive gameplan i like with the Vong, particulally these days where they can be easily outactivated and out gunned.

You are also stuck with which of the booster pieces to use, Shaper or Priest. Both are weak and don't bring anything other than shaper and Scar.

In a kill 'em all game, the vong are tough as bricks. In a timed tourney competition they often struggle to make up the points they lose on approach.


These seem to always be the Vong's issue. Bill and i were talking and we seem to be in the same thoguht that Vong can be done, but it is a staight focus, unlike many squads which can divert and have nitches that synergize in the squad, the Vong don't have that option. You play SS with Nom, or you go for the gusto with Lah and JH's. You can't have both

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 7:10 pm 
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I've always been fond of backing up the vong with a strong shooter. Attempt to run a JIS type squad, but wuing JHs and Guardians instead of Jedi. Generally would work better in 200 points that way you can fit in a solid shooter (aka pick a fett :P) and 3-4 interference figures. Maybe Nom cloaks a Priest as well.. and get T3 (or something similar) to flamethrower to pick up the bonus.. hmm.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:16 pm 
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With a Czerka and a Shaper, provided the Shaper gets other use in the squad, Nom is a fair shooter himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:28 am 
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Ruhk wrote:
I've always been fond of backing up the vong with a strong shooter.

I agree with the strong shooter. I played a few games pre-ban/JA with this squad:

--Smuggled Vong--
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Smuggler
21 Yuuzhan Vong Shaper
60 Yuuzhan Vong Jedi Hunter x3
15 Lobot, Computer Liaison Officer
11 Advance Agent, Officer
6 Mouse Droid x2
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3
(150pts. 12 activations)

This squad had problems with strong shooters (Rex & Dash) but fared well against the rest of the restricted meta. With GOWK out of the picture I think Vong will have to adapt and rely on Nom Anor
once again.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:47 am 
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Partof1 wrote:
With a Czerka and a Shaper, provided the Shaper gets other use in the squad, Nom is a fair shooter himself.

Unfortunately this has been ruled not to work. Shaper changes the base damage, and then Czerka doesn't grant the twin. Here's a thought I had - Nom with Yomin, a priest and a czerka. Then you bring in Dr. Evazan to do homicidal surgery to scar up Nom! :) Bring Garindan and several Advance agent scouts. Spittin poison all over the place and Nom doing his cannon from the back. It's a tough squad, and if the opponent doesn't have disruptive (or it's a trap), it's almost an auto-win. You can even bring an MTB without fear, as you can bomb it at any time.

BUT - Deri hit it on the head, in an hour you'll usually be down in points. They are a kill 'em all type of team. They sacrifice for the greater good. It actually fits the Vong very well.


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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:02 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
Partof1 wrote:
With a Czerka and a Shaper, provided the Shaper gets other use in the squad, Nom is a fair shooter himself.

Unfortunately this has been ruled not to work. Shaper changes the base damage, and then Czerka doesn't grant the twin. Here's a thought I had - Nom with Yomin, a priest and a czerka. Then you bring in Dr. Evazan to do homicidal surgery to scar up Nom! :) Bring Garindan and several Advance agent scouts. Spittin poison all over the place and Nom doing his cannon from the back. It's a tough squad, and if the opponent doesn't have disruptive (or it's a trap), it's almost an auto-win. You can even bring an MTB without fear, as you can bomb it at any time.

BUT - Deri hit it on the head, in an hour you'll usually be down in points. They are a kill 'em all type of team. They sacrifice for the greater good. It actually fits the Vong very well.



I like the idea of the HS use on Nom. Great way to grant scarification and still have twin. The shaper and nom are friendly and all but he lossess some gusto with her.

But again Vong have a hard time even with solid shooters doing enough damage consistantly. In timed matches you must play almost flawlessly to win with the Vong.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:32 pm 
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I'd personally drop the AAO and Shaper adding maybe a YVOG or PVW and definitely the PVP

Just my opinion though. The +4 dmg can go a long way

So with the PVP is Lah even somewhat competitive in 200?

I mean +19 for 20 a pop with cleave (30 with shaper) isn't anything to sneeze at...plus loads of HP.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:30 am 
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The ONLY time I will ever use the Advanced Agent Officer is in a 200 point squad with Lah, where you're hoping to get a big Triple/Cunning/Cleave/etc. attack out of him at some point. Otherwise, it just isn't worth it. With the new initiative rules, and only getting to activate 1 character if you go first in the round, having pieces with Cunning Attack aren't nearly as powerful as they were when the AAO first came out in A&E. So, IMO, if you want some Cunning Attack in your squad, it's MUCH better to just go with a Praetorite Warrior for the Cunning +20 attack.

Actually, Fool's idea of using Dr. Evazan is actually quite hilarious, lol. Using a Nom bomb to trigger damage on another piece isn't too bad either, though it could be tougher to pull off because you have to either force your opponent to kill the bomb, or hit the bomb with Flamethrower/Missiles/etc.

Here's the current Vong build I've been toying around with. I'm not really set on it yet, but I think it's a good start at least.

Praetorite Warrior
Shaper
Vong JH x2
Yomin Carr
Praetorite Priest
Twi'lek BG
Wicket
Ugo x2
Mouse Droid x2
(150 Pts., 12 activations)

Using a piece like Dash RS is a good idea too, I'm just not certain how to squeeze him into a build like this. The Praetorite Warrior can dish out up to 60 damage per hit in this build though, at a +16 attack (+20 if you include Wicket's Traps). Granted, that can be a tad tough to pull off sometimes, but it's enough to scare an opponent pretty decently, IMO. I think it may be too much tech though, and not enough offense, so I'm seriously considering dropping the Shaper for another Jedi Hunter. I haven't quite decided whether it's better to use the Shaper or the Priest though. The Shaper is guaranteed extra damage all the time, plus it doubles when you get a crit, which is really nice. The Priest gives the Vong that extra Attack boost which is very helpful with their mediocre attack scores, especially against non-Jedi units. However, the fact that they HAVE to get damaged before they can get that bonus can make it much easier for your opponent to play strategically enough to deny you that bonus. In addition, I like the fact that the Shaper has 10 more HP than the Priest does. Just enough to make a nice difference. Of course, the Bodyguard is there to help with that sort of thing, but it's not necessarily always enough. Also, going with another JH instead of the Shaper would allow upgrading the Twi'lek BG to a Human BG, which makes a BIG difference in survivability for that Priest.

I haven't really had a chance to play-test this one much yet. I think it really depends on what your local opponents play regularly. Meta-wise, I think the Rieekan/Snowspeeder squads right now are enough to keep Vong from being competitive, because it's too easy for the SS to sneak around behind and pick off the Support pieces. In addition, you can't Spit Poison the Speeder, it negates 10 damage from every hit through DR10, and Yomin's Poison +10 CE won't help against it either. Not to mention the high speed means catching the SS is completely dependent on winning initiative. So I just don't think it's really doable.

Now 200 points....I think the options are much more available there. You can fit so much beef into a 200 point Vong squad. Even if it's just something like 6 JHs, that can be incredibly tough to beat, especially in a 1 hour time limit. All in all, I think Vong may still be Tier 1.5 at best at the 150 point level. At 200 i think they can definitely hang in there.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:49 am 
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With the advent of "NMTO" and the increase of NR squads, the MTB may not be sexy anymore. However, MTB and something that does 10-20 SD damage (Ug Boss + Ug/Gonk/Gran) might be a simpler way of getting that Scarification boost without having use an iffy SA or costing points. Depends on whom you want to scar. With SD20, you at least get the 10 D to those with Voduun CA 6 with a higher probability of not taking the full 20. With Nom, I would go with just a Ug Boss (via Lobot, of course) and an ug if that's all you want to wound for the damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:13 am 
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Actually, if you run a 200 point build with Nom and UH Lobot, then you just bring in the MTB and 3 Grans with Lobot (hopefully you have some other fodder in your squad as well), then set up such that you can blow one Gran and trigger Scarification on multiple pieces right off the bat. Again, I don't particularly like the idea of intentionally hurting my own pieces, but if it's only 10 damage, might be worth trying it.

Probably depends on what your opponent is running too though. If they have high-powered Accurate shooters, might not make much difference, as you really won't be able to expose the Priest much anyways, because they'll just shoot it. A lot of it comes down to match-ups. Luckily, Accurate isn't as common anymore, and most pieces with Accurate can't do more than 40-60 damage per round, so usually, can keep the Priest alive with a Bodyguard pretty easily for at least one round. Plus, that shooter then has to waste 1 to 2 rounds trying to kill your tech, rather than dealing with the main Vong pieces themselves, so that can be like shooting yourself in the foot as well.

Honestly, for me, that's one of the biggest issues I have with the Vong still. In order to use the Priest or the Shaper, you're forced to run a bodyguard as well, otherwise, they'll never survive long enough to be useful. I like the fact that they are SAs, so they aren't stopped by Disruptive, but it also hinders their usefulness, especially if you're already running Mouse Droids to help with Yomin's CE. It's sort of a toss up I guess. Can't have the best of both worlds.

Hmmm....what about this for 200 points then:

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/View.aspx?ID=52033

--Bring on the Pain--
34 Nom Anor
27 Lobot
22 Praetorite Vong Warrior
40 Yuuzhan Vong Jedi Hunter x2
19 Yomin Carr
18 Praetorite Vong Priest
13 Czerka Scientist
12 Advance Scout x2
6 Mouse Droid x2
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

Preferred Reinforcements:
(Lobot) 8 Muun Tactics Broker
(Lobot) 12 Gran Raider x3

(200pts. 19 activations)

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:40 pm 
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I think Vong are also pretty tough in 100. They are very survivable for the cost, and can do some pretty good damage. Ossus Guardians are some of my favourites, even though their cost makes them seem unfavourable over Jedi hunters. The extra 2 defense, 22 in cover, has been very helpful in my games. Not to mention razorbug, which is good for scrub killing or the sometimes important un-rerollable 10 damage.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:26 pm 
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The current map list is the biggest problem the Vong face. Take away some of those, and the Vong are as good as any. I've got a couple of builds on my bloomilk that you should check out.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:41 pm 
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I think that is part of the problem. Vong are pure melee, and too many maps, especially the newer ones are very much range friendly. Vong don't have high enough D for the +4 cover bonus to matter, and they have only a few ranged options, and those are very limited as well. Friggen 10 damage!

I know Nom Bombs used Mos Esley to great effect in 150 back when they were still in vogue, but what map can they dominate todays enviorment on? And regular Vong builds don't evne have that, although I have to say Muun Plaza (CS Starter) and ravaged base were my most succesfull maps with Vong. Plenty of safe passage, but in a timed game, often took too long

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:09 am 
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Yeah, I played a quick 150 game on Sunday with a basic Vong build (copied off of Bill's bloomilk I think) consisting of 3 JHs, Shaper, Priest, Yomin, Human Bodyguard, and filler. I lost the map roll, so was forced to play on Taris, against a squad with Malak DLOTS, Jedi Crusader, Dash RS, 3 Antarians, and filler. It was honestly closer than it should've been, but I still lost without too much effort. He played very agressive, and that's the only reason I managed to kill everything but Malak. But Malak was still at full HP when he killed my last Vong. The Antarians attacking at a +15 most of the time, really hurt. And honestly, I don't think I would even consider that a good Vong counter build. It was just the stupid Taris map. Had absolutely no easy ways to cross the map and stay in relative cover. And my lead piece would be looking to take somewhere between 30 and 140 damage per round depending on whether I could keep Dash from getting Opportunist or not. I outactivated him the first few rounds, but quickly starting losing pieces once we engaged and he took out my fodder. I couldn't even keep my Shaper protected long enough to really be effective. It was either lose her, or lose a JH. If I'd won map, it would've been a much different game. Being hosed on the first roll just sucks though.

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 Post subject: Re: Building with the Vong
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:07 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
Being hosed on the first roll just sucks though.


I bet it does.

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