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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:41 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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dvader831 wrote:
Jedicartographer wrote:
Bill you know I have your back 150% on this. Whatever you need.


Oh, crap, you just demonstrated how you can open your mouth and insert both feet! You're doomed, Matt!

Bill, I think it is a great idea, but I also have to look at Jason's side and think it might be too much, too early. I support the idea, of course, and will do whatever I can, but I have a feeling that it will be a slow process, no matter the outcome.


Oh I agree. And just to be clear, I am not submitting this to Sarah tomorrow. It's an ongoing process that I will be working on for a while. My tentative target date would be the January update at the absolute earliest, but I doubt I will be ready at that time. I have a lot of work to do in the meantime, and of course I have other commitments.

It might not even happen until the day comes that WotC ends the game and the players take over :) But it's something that I believe will happen, at some point. I am just starting with the groundwork for it now, and will begin working with my contacts soon enough.

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:44 pm 
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If nothing else we can eventually create a new database, and some sort of rudimentaery reporting software and come up with are own thing to. And then just run a grassroots campaign to get people signed up in it.

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:29 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Well, since you asked for the discussion here, I'll discuss it here :P.

The idea has its merits and some very interesting options to it. I know that JC would love to have an environment where his maps could be tested, and I would also love to have an environment where those of us who do constant custom stats could have some of our ideas tested. If GWEk doesn't chime in here, I'll send him a PM or something; he's great with getting the big stat projects organized.

I'm somewhat with Jason on this, though... too much too fast would probably be a good way to describe this any time before next year at the earliest, probably July of next year. As always, I could be wrong :twisted:. As far as software is concerned, I know how much code it takes to put together something like DCI ranking software, and aside from the database, it's minimal; no trouble there.

But if you do get this up and running, count me in for getting the custom stats guys together... heck, I might even be able to get JC to do some hex-based maps for the custom rules set I'm planning (not that it would work in this format, but hey, why not?).


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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:38 pm 
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S1AL wrote:
before next year at the earliest, probably July of next year. As always, I could be wrong :twisted:. As far as software is concerned, I know how much code it takes to put together something like DCI ranking software, and aside from the database, it's minimal; no trouble there.


Yep, I am looking at July of next year as the most likely earliest date of interest. I honestly probably wasn't ready to bring it up yet, but I sort of let it out in the private forum, and figured, ah, what the hell, let's get the ball rolling.

I also thought it might give us something to talk about other than GOWK for a change :), something positive for the good of the community, to give people hope again in the game and the future of it.

I am not a software guy, so I am pretty ignorant on the issues of code and so forth. From my perspective, they already have most of the code in place, it's simply a matter of setting up another database to track, and incorporating the option for the store to click it. If it's more than that, let me know, as I would like to incorporate that into my grand planning. The more I have prepared before I go to Sarah with it, the better obviously.

As for asking for the discussion here, I just wanted it in one place, so I don't have to track multiple threads :)

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:02 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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billiv15 wrote:
Yep, I am looking at July of next year as the most likely earliest date of interest. I honestly probably wasn't ready to bring it up yet, but I sort of let it out in the private forum, and figured, ah, what the hell, let's get the ball rolling.


Well hey, sounds like a good date to me. A year is really enough time for this sort of thing to be ready.

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I also thought it might give us something to talk about other than GOWK for a change :), something positive for the good of the community, to give people hope again in the game and the future of it.


Personally, I'll just be glad to be talking about something that won't piss anybody off :P.

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I am not a software guy, so I am pretty ignorant on the issues of code and so forth. From my perspective, they already have most of the code in place, it's simply a matter of setting up another database to track, and incorporating the option for the store to click it. If it's more than that, let me know, as I would like to incorporate that into my grand planning. The more I have prepared before I go to Sarah with it, the better obviously.


Yeah... about that: I'm not sure how I got about 4 different ideas bouncing around in my head at once, but it happened. The software comment was more meant for the possibility that, if you don't get this into DCI, it could become a complete fan project.

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As for asking for the discussion here, I just wanted it in one place, so I don't have to track multiple threads :)


And that's fine with me. I've just not been posting here because it only seems to cause problems for everyone involved when I do. I'll break that to talk about something like this, though.


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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:55 pm 
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You know what else would be cool? team rankings. I made up a 10 page rules thingy awhile back that based epic play on teams of 2 to 6 players per team. I think establishing a league teams system, along with a god set of rules for epic play, would be a game changer.

I think team rankings can be a great morale booster for crappier players like me, they can get in on a team with stronger players and get there name out there on score cards.

As far as hex based play, that may be a little out in left field for me, but I''m not saying I above it by any means, Honestly I think hex based play is probably a bit more accurate for games invoving thinkgs out in nature, like endor or Degobah.

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:03 am 
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Interesting idea here, the key point is that it legitimises what many play groups are already doing (variant formats, fan maps, etc). My thoughts:

Variant Formats

Can't see how this would be a problem since Dynamic Duo has already been recognised. I'm still a huge fan of Karma Format, I'm sure other formats have their adherents as well :)

I would be wary about people coming up with all sorts of variants that totally destroy the rules. Playing without Gambit will be common, but you'll also end up with people wanting to house-rule abilities, play with range requirements, etc. Could get very messy.

Fan Made Maps

I didn't want to comment on JC's petition on WotC about this, since I think this is something DCI won't allow since it involves non-WotC made products. Having a new format isn't going to change that fact. Be great if it can be done though, but I'm not holding my breath.

Custom Stats

Same issue as with fan made maps, but potentially easier to resolve since we'd still be using actual WotC-made SWM figures?

I'd be keen to work on this. I think the way to do it would be:

- a committee would need to approve custom stats. The stats would need to be balanced; balanced figures will have a stamp of approval from the Custom Stats Committee. Anything that is not approved will not be allowed in the format. A database of approved customs would then be maintained.

- with the release of each set, the committee will need to re-evaluate the approved customs, in case there are any unintended new combos made available

- a rule allowing a maximum number of customs per squad should also be enforced, so as to limit the possibility that different custom figures will interact in game-breaking combinations

This concept of Approved Customs could be done regardless of whether the DCI changes are implemented, we could already be organising like this for casual play :)


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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:11 am 
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Hopefully the figure stats from the UM books could get approval. Would be great to be able to use the figures I've made for them.


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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:12 am 
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As a Fan Variant I'd also like to see the GFC format in there.

If need be, I can put together a clear concise rules post on it.


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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:30 am 
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Fool wrote:
As a Fan Variant I'd also like to see the GFC format in there.

If need be, I can put together a clear concise rules post on it.


Honestly, that would probably fall under the 'Dream Team' scenario, as that's basically what it is. You have some more strict rules for how to decide which pieces you're playing with, but ultimately, it's the same thing as Dream Team.

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:01 pm 
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while i don't like the idea of custom map and minis, on the ground that are not easily aquirable by everyone i like trhe idea of unlimited. it could open up DCI to new formats. i want to see a mini cap and i play at a store that does play with min of 4 max 13minis and find to be alot of fun.

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 1:43 pm 
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We do alot of "custom formats" in WA. Every wednesday is a custom event and we do saturdays as our dci events. Our custom events are all dci rules except whats required for the special format. We do 100pt teams, 200 points with a mandatory 90+ points of huges, 150 points with 70+ points of Melee unique chars with 20+ base damage...etc.

Our wednesday normally have 6-14 players and the 2-5 boosters for prizes generally keep everyone working hard to win.

We report it as casual play.

I think the only thing that would change would be that we have ratings to record how it goes. We have a few players that play about 90% of their games on wednesdays, so they might be excited to see how they rate in the format.

If it goes through, I would make a greater effort to make sure we report the wednesday events but I am not sure if it will really change anything here.

We don't really use any custom stats for minis or custom maps for our fun wednesday events, so maybe this will have a larger effect for the areas that do.


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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:20 pm 
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I like the idea Bill.

I do have some concerns on customs or house rules but over all interesting. :D

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:16 pm 
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Jedicartographer wrote:
You know what else would be cool? team rankings. I made up a 10 page rules thingy awhile back that based epic play on teams of 2 to 6 players per team. I think establishing a league teams system, along with a god set of rules for epic play, would be a game changer.


The group that I play with on a regular basis would love this....we usually play with 4 to 8 players. We each pick a faction and run combined as a team. If you are looking for additional testers for your team rule sets, we would be willing.

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:01 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:

The idea is simple, change the "Casual" reporting format to "RPG".



I don't understand what you mean by this,since the RPG itself is reported thru the RPGA stuff.... :?:

Could you clearify what you mean please, I understand Casual but not the changing the reporting format to RPG :?:

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:11 pm 
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Well, I would guess that what Bill is getting at, is that SW RPG games are reported through the RPGA right now, but they are not distinguished from D&D RPG games at all. So much so, that when RPGA sends out prize cards for people completing X number of RPG events, 90% of the time they send out D&D cards, which are useless to SW RPG players. This is probably best left to a separate discussion altogether, but many SW RPG players would like to see a separate way to report their sessions, rather than lumping them in with D&D players. Lumping them in with other 'casual' SWM games though may not be much different. But at least then WOTC would be able to keep a little bit better track of who is using the SWMs for non-DCI purposes, including the RPG.

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:56 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
Well, I would guess that what Bill is getting at, is that SW RPG games are reported through the RPGA right now, but they are not distinguished from D&D RPG games at all. So much so, that when RPGA sends out prize cards for people completing X number of RPG events, 90% of the time they send out D&D cards, which are useless to SW RPG players. This is probably best left to a separate discussion altogether, but many SW RPG players would like to see a separate way to report their sessions, rather than lumping them in with D&D players. Lumping them in with other 'casual' SWM games though may not be much different. But at least then WOTC would be able to keep a little bit better track of who is using the SWMs for non-DCI purposes, including the RPG.


Right now your able to report that your playing the SW RPG Dawn of Defaince game thru the RPGA seperate from the D&D stuff,but you still have ot take the D&D test to become a game runner for the RPGA despite using SW RPG instead,but they are working on forming an RPGA GM test for SWRPG

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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:37 pm 
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My question is, and maybe this was already covered, but would this unlimited play include things like our local group's Mt. Tantiss game format, as well as other local formats that have been created, which we love to play as much as dynamic duo?

Would this also include scenarios?

I like the overall idea and think that this woudl be great for the game as it will encourage local competition and allow people to see how they stack up against local players in the local meta. I know that alot of people where I used to play didn't care about their DCI ranking because it essentially didn't mean anything, but if these changes take place, it might actually mean something locally which I'm sure would intrigue players on the local scene.

I'm not sure how I would feel if custom maps were to be included or custom characters....there's alot of stuff being talked about and I'm not sure that I understand all of it, but if this type of DCI categorizing is meant to encourage competition on a local level (see how you stack up against the local meta and players) I don't see how this can be a bad thing, as everyone loves healthy competition. It will also allow newer players to see their progression in the game against other local players and reward them for trying to learn the local meta as well as the overall game strategy.


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 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:08 am 
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I think it is a great idea. The DCI rules at present have actually been a stumbling block for creating local events in the past.

I think anything that allows casual players to record plays a good thing, although please don't call it RPG, it's not really RPG.

Just wondering, what is the smallest 'group' than can record? I believe at the moment it's 4 players. It would be great if just a couple of mates could record plays, and I don't see how that can be any more abused than the current system. At present I just record what games I've played over on boardgamegeek.

billiv15 wrote:
Exactly. Which is why it would be a separately rated format. I want it rated for a couple of reasons.

1. There is no incentive to report "Casual" play. And a rating system, is the cheapest, and easiest way to do that. And it's effective - even if not completely logical.

2. It give validity to Fan created material, something many of us want. And it gives a very official way to do so, which satisfies those who want to use maps, formats and so on.

3. It gives venues a way to play "competitively" without being confined only to Tournament rules. Reporting it as a "Casual" event has not had the same kind of effect. Most people respond to that option with "Meh". I think providing a rating for it gives that additional validity that people want.

4. It would prevent future ban issues from becoming so emotional. There is precedent for this in most other WotC games. It would allow the Tournament rules to be relegated to that, and thus more easily controlled, with less of the anti-GOWK, anti-init rule, anti-Gambit fights that have been dividing the community over the years.

Agree with all the above.

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