logo

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:29 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
Ok, so I sort of let the cat out of the bag in a private forum, but I thought it time to bring it up here in General for more discussion.

Keep in mind, this is just the beginnings of my plans for this venture, which I hope to make into a formal proposal to Sarah later in the year. So think of it as sort of a brainstorming session/asking for help/what do you all think type of discussion.

The idea is simple, change the "Casual" reporting format to "RPG".

Add a third DCI scoring format called, "Unlimited Play". This will be a rated and tracked format along side of "Limited (Sealed)" and regular tournament play. In fact, it might involve changing regular play to be called, "Tournament" or something else for lack of a better title at the moment.

The idea of Unlimited Play is that the local store can choose the squad building rules, the maps, the legal figures, and so on. Now, I intend to have some rules that govern how they must advertise it and so forth, to prevent some issues, but in general, the idea would work like Casual can work now.

The reason for the change is simple. It gives people a chance to play banned minis, banned maps, and more importantly, fan created material in a legal, rated tournament environment. It also means you can report at the stores that do more casual league style play as well. Ultimately, the ratings won't mean anything more than bragging rights, which is little difference than the actual DCI ratings for tournaments mean now (although one day I suspect that will change), but we all know, that motivation alone is enough to get people to use the system - even to fight through the reporting problems and so on.

In addition, it would involve getting together some of our great sub-game rule set creators to write up formal rule sets for the side games that have become and remain popular. I know Boris has questioned the validity of using DD in the regular ratings specifically, and this gives him the correct place to do so.

My initial proposal of ideas would look something like the following:
Dynamic Duo (Perhaps with additional sentences for Terrific Trio and Fantastic Four)
Tile Wars
Peasant
Epic
Dream Team (No Faction Rules)
Lightside/Darkside
Melee Only

Each of those would be included regularly in the DCI Floor rules to give them that official feel, under a section titled, "Optional Rulesets for Unlimited Play".

Now, Unlimited would not be limited to only these things, but these would give people at every store across the country, access from the DCI site, the basic set of rules for all the tested and created fan formats. And better yet, players get the fun of having bragging rights of an actual rating. It would mean something.

It would also give DCI legitimacy to the great maps made by JC, AG7 and others. And in particular, it would open up the possibility of advertising the sale of those fan maps to a wider audience, without violating Copyright infringement or taking away from WotC product sales. WotC maps would remain the only legal maps for DCI Tournament play, and the usual subset of those, while the remaining, like Mustafar, Geonosis, Korriban, Chrystophis, Teth, etc can be used in this format.

There would be a strict limit on changing the rules of play however. House rules are not allowed beyond the simple format changes allowed. In a sense, the only rules you can change are the legal minis/maps, and the format of the games. Banned minis are allowed, but each store would have the right to eliminate any mini they choose to, provided they follow the advertising rules properly. They will be free to ignore any non-rulebook DCI rules as well as a part of this, including Gambit and the Initiative change, unless those are added at some point to an actual rulebook. In a sense this is meant to be a straight from the Rulebook playstyle to a degree.

So tell me what you all think. I will be working on this over the next few months and if you are the creator of one of the mentioned formats, expect to hear from me at some point :)

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:36 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
Unnamed Wookiee
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:37 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Maple Grove, MN
When you say "fan created material is a legal" ... so you also mean custom miniatures w/stats? Or are you just talking maps and formats?

Either way I think it gives venues more options which is great.

_________________
I really wish I wasn't a meatbag.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:42 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
monni316 wrote:
When you say "fan created material is a legal" ... so you also mean custom miniatures w/stats? Or are you just talking maps and formats?

Either way I think it gives venues more options which is great.


Maps for sure.

Custom Figures is one of the things I am considering for the proposal. I am not sure there is a way to work it, but it might be possible to get a small committee set up from the Customs boards of long time custom makers who would deem a mini playable or not.

It's also possible that one of the listed formats would include "Custom Format" or whatever. Where each player can make a custom mini to play that night. There would have to be some rules about how that works, and the TO would have to have final say on legal or not that night, but I think it can be done.

A third option would be to allow certain customs. For example, "The Lost 20" set. Things that receive some community support could be allowed for use in this format, but again, careful governance and control will be key to doing it right. This may again, fall to making up a committee like the above.

So for now, I leave the option open, recognizing it presents some issues. Do you have any thoughts on how it might work?

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:42 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:08 pm
Posts: 8394
Bill, I think you are referring to Dream Team when you mention the Cincinnati variant.

_________________
Click here to check out all the people who have realized the truth. Someday you will, too.

"I would really, really like to not have anything else happen at the end of the round other than things just ending." -- Sithborg


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:43 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Bill, I think you are referring to Dream Team when you mention the Cincinnati variant.

thanks, fixed it.

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:54 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
I don't want "unlimited" results mixed into the general constructed rating which is already diluted/abusable enough. I prefer that rating remain for regular old constructed (with the noted exception of DD which is a concession for the greater good.) While it's true that the ranking isn't a perfect reflection of everyone playing the same game, it's pretty close. Once you allow any sort of custom rule night to affect the ranking it's hard to say it has any reflection on what 'game' is being played.

I don't expect DCI will allocate resources to work on DCI Reporter to create a new category for reporting. And if they were willing to work on it, I prefer they'd fix tiebreaker issues first. And I don't think the Web team resource will be allocated to show the new category for player review. And if they're willing to allocate Web resources for SWM I can think of many things I'd prefer--let's start with the Database. :)

Barring that, the basic idea seems reasonable enough. I just don't see why you want it rated. Once you get outside of the strict rules of DCI, why not just use the WPN casual method and see if you can get any traction there for the format?

_________________


Last edited by NickName on Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:56 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
Unnamed Wookiee
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:37 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Maple Grove, MN
billiv15 wrote:
monni316 wrote:
When you say "fan created material is a legal" ... so you also mean custom miniatures w/stats? Or are you just talking maps and formats?

Either way I think it gives venues more options which is great.


Maps for sure.

Custom Figures is one of the things I am considering for the proposal. I am not sure there is a way to work it, but it might be possible to get a small committee set up from the Customs boards of long time custom makers who would deem a mini playable or not.

It's also possible that one of the listed formats would include "Custom Format" or whatever. Where each player can make a custom mini to play that night. There would have to be some rules about how that works, and the TO would have to have final say on legal or not that night, but I think it can be done.

A third option would be to allow certain customs. For example, "The Lost 20" set. Things that receive some community support could be allowed for use in this format, but again, careful governance and control will be key to doing it right. This may again, fall to making up a committee like the above.

So for now, I leave the option open, recognizing it presents some issues. Do you have any thoughts on how it might work?


I really like the idea ... obviously the custom mini's could get abused... but if you go through the right channels it can also work quite well. At our venue sometimes we give out custom prizes that can then be played by the winner of it in our casual groups. We usually just post the stats on the WOTC get feedback and work on it until it seems fair ... Gwek, who has made a ton of great stats, often chimes in which is really useful.

The committee is a great idea, as well. My only fear is that they'd get bogged down by requests for 'so-and-so' custom mini to get recognized as legal. Then again maybe not, because I really don't know how other areas like or dislike custom mini's. I know our group really likes having that option and also playing on custom maps.

I know there is some discussion of starting up TLT 2.0 ... so maybe that would be a good testing ground to a process of getting some customs legalized for the Unlimited Play.

_________________
I really wish I wasn't a meatbag.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:06 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
NickName wrote:
I don't want "unlimited" results mixed into the general constructed rating which is already diluted/abusable enough. I prefer that rating remain for regular old constructed (with the noted exception of DD which is a concession for the greater good.) While it's true that the ranking isn't a perfect reflection of everyone playing the same game, it's pretty close. Once you allow any sort of custom rule night to affect the ranking it's hard to say it has any reflection on what 'game' is being played.


Exactly. Which is why it would be a separately rated format. I want it rated for a couple of reasons.

1. There is no incentive to report "Casual" play. And a rating system, is the cheapest, and easiest way to do that. And it's effective - even if not completely logical.

2. It give validity to Fan created material, something many of us want. And it gives a very official way to do so, which satisfies those who want to use maps, formats and so on.

3. It gives venues a way to play "competitively" without being confined only to Tournament rules. Reporting it as a "Casual" event has not had the same kind of effect. Most people respond to that option with "Meh". I think providing a rating for it gives that additional validity that people want.

4. It would prevent future ban issues from becoming so emotional. There is precedent for this in most other WotC games. It would allow the Tournament rules to be relegated to that, and thus more easily controlled, with less of the anti-GOWK, anti-init rule, anti-Gambit fights that have been dividing the community over the years.

I understand the Web resources issue, and that will be a big part of my work here, to make it easy for WotC to do, without costing a lot. But yes, in general, that will be a hurdle for it. However, I see this as a bigger issue than the database personally :), even if I understand why you and others would not.

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:50 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
I get the reasons some might want it rated. (I don't really see the value of having a rating that compares how someone does in their weekly ewok vs gran battle vs someone else's weekly 500 point Epic game but whatever.)

The logistical reasons for not rating it just outweigh them for me. We've never really gotten any response about altering DCI Reporter to my knowledge. If something is easier than fixing a typo in a preview, or adding a faction to the database I'm not sure what it could be but it's not revising their DCI database backend for a new rating category that's for sure. And given their response (that is, "lack of any") to the former items, that latter seems stillborn.

Without both those things it can't happen (as you desire it.)

I place the odds of those things happing at maybe 1 in 100.

If you end up proving me wrong, great, we all benefit.

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:53 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
NickName wrote:
I get the reasons some might want it rated. (I don't really see the value of having a rating that compares how someone does in their weekly ewok vs gran battle vs someone else's weekly 500 point Epic game but whatever.)

The logistical reasons for not rating it just outweigh them for me. We've never really gotten any response about altering DCI Reporter to my knowledge. If something is easier than fixing a typo in a preview, or adding a faction to the database I'm not sure what it could be but it's not revising their DCI database backend for a new rating category that's for sure. And given their response (that is, "lack of any") to the former items, that latter seems stillborn.

Without both those things it can't happen (as you desire it.)

I place the odds of those things happing at maybe 1 in 100.

If you end up proving me wrong, great, we all benefit.


Well, yeah, I can't deny anything of which you speak. But I am still going to work on it, as I think it would offer a lot to the community if I can get it to happen.

So any substantive issues you want to raise?

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:57 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
The One True Sith Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:12 pm
Posts: 2026
Location: Nixa,Missouri
billiv15 wrote:
NickName wrote:
I get the reasons some might want it rated. (I don't really see the value of having a rating that compares how someone does in their weekly ewok vs gran battle vs someone else's weekly 500 point Epic game but whatever.)

The logistical reasons for not rating it just outweigh them for me. We've never really gotten any response about altering DCI Reporter to my knowledge. If something is easier than fixing a typo in a preview, or adding a faction to the database I'm not sure what it could be but it's not revising their DCI database backend for a new rating category that's for sure. And given their response (that is, "lack of any") to the former items, that latter seems stillborn.

Without both those things it can't happen (as you desire it.)

I place the odds of those things happing at maybe 1 in 100.

If you end up proving me wrong, great, we all benefit.


Well, yeah, I can't deny anything of which you speak. But I am still going to work on it, as I think it would offer a lot to the community if I can get it to happen.

So any substantive issues you want to raise?


Awww come on guys!!!!

I year and a half a go if I had said we would have reional qualifiers and that the players would be in control of organized play would you have thought it possible??????


I think this is a great idea!!!

_________________
ImageImage
"What is your bidding, My Master?"

Collection: 934/934

SWM DCI Content Manager


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:07 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
No, the substance is fine, if not my cup of tea. WPN works fine for me, and our venue, for "anything goes". Our Wednesday evenings where anything goes do better by a wide margin than our DCI sanctioned events. Given my understanding of our local players, adding a semi-structured tourney environment to that would reduce particupation, not increase it. And relaxing the DCI Sanctioned events to this would not increase the participation because it doesn't "solve" what keeps our casual players from enjoying DCI.

My preference for any effort put into DCI go another route toward refining it and adding other more defined play options. The slow, steady path that Jim has us on.

(While I'm not in any way opposed to this new idea I just worry that the increased access to WotC further dilutes getting things done. If 10 people hit them with one concept, it stands a chance at traction, but if 10 people hit them with 10 different things it becomes chaos and none of them get done.)

_________________


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:41 pm 
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 2004
Location: Minnesota
I am not against this in any way. I am a little confused I guess. I understand what you are trying to do, but am having difficulty with this part. Right now we have DCI sanctioned play, WPN play, and casual play. I don't understand how your proposal is outside of the WPN umbrella. Maybe if you could help me understand that my lightbulb will go on.

At my venue (which is constantly posted about in the cantina under Minnesota SWMs) We play mostly WPN. We use that forum to announce what we are playing each week which is pretty much follow DCI floor rules, but here are the exceptions etc, etc. We are allowed to play on custom maps (unless the format for the week is follow DCI strictly) and we give out custom minis about once a month as prizes in which the player can play those customs in their squads. So, you are basically saying you want a formal version of this to put in a document for other venues to have the abilitiy to use?

_________________
Image Image Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:51 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
Dark Lord of the Sith
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:38 am
Posts: 1959
there is no WPN for minis does that help. there is sealed,constructed,and casual. Giving Star wars RPG there own format would give better numbers for who plays D&D and who plays Star wars. Then giving the people that like to do different formats a reason to report. Right now there is no reason for casual gamers to report other than to tell wizards that they are a live. I think getting league kits which wont happen would be a lot better than trying to get ratings for causal events thats just my take on it.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:53 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
Kinda Boba.

Making it more formal gives it more validity.

Think of it this way. Right now, in the GOWK debates, people constantly respond to gripes with a statement like, "Well report it as casual". Which doesn't make the opposing party happy in anyway. They want to play DCI rated games with it.

DCI rating of course, isn't important at all at this time. It means nothing in reality. In a sense, it's a false sense of meaning, but never the less, it's important to people. It's a psychological effect I believe, but true regardless.

I want to apply a way to make that effect fit how others view the game.

It gives people who don't want DCI to control their game, more validity. It allows DCI to control the tournament game specifically, without as much drama. It allows people to do their various optional games, and provides them with resources on other ways to do it from people who have taken the time to test and develop their ideas.

It provides "bragging rights" to the format(s). We cannot continue to add fan formats to the regular DCI rating. I love DD, and was in favor of adding it, but you have to see where this can lead. The more we add, the more we dilute the value a DCI rating has. One day we may want that rating to mean something (hint, hint). But this way, people get both things. A DCI rating for the stuff they already do, the ability to play they game they want to locally, and get recognized for it, more than simply the knowledge that their venue reported it, and it gives WotC an accurate measure of how the game is being played.

It would encourage the use of the WPN in a sense, even though this would basically replace it. I would predict a 2X or more increase of reporting by venues because of player demand than the WPN currently has. That is a significant reason.

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:59 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
The One True Sith Lord
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:12 pm
Posts: 2026
Location: Nixa,Missouri
billiv15 wrote:
Kinda Boba.

Making it more formal gives it more validity.

Think of it this way. Right now, in the GOWK debates, people constantly respond to gripes with a statement like, "Well report it as casual". Which doesn't make the opposing party happy in anyway. They want to play DCI rated games with it.

DCI rating of course, isn't important at all at this time. It means nothing in reality. In a sense, it's a false sense of meaning, but never the less, it's important to people. It's a psychological effect I believe, but true regardless.

I want to apply a way to make that effect fit how others view the game.

It gives people who don't want DCI to control their game, more validity. It allows DCI to control the tournament game specifically, without as much drama. It allows people to do their various optional games, and provides them with resources on other ways to do it from people who have taken the time to test and develop their ideas.

It provides "bragging rights" to the format(s). We cannot continue to add fan formats to the regular DCI rating. I love DD, and was in favor of adding it, but you have to see where this can lead. The more we add, the more we dilute the value a DCI rating has. One day we may want that rating to mean something (hint, hint). But this way, people get both things. A DCI rating for the stuff they already do, the ability to play they game they want to locally, and get recognized for it, more than simply the knowledge that their venue reported it, and it gives WotC an accurate measure of how the game is being played.

It would encourage the use of the WPN in a sense, even though this would basically replace it. I would predict a 2X or more increase of reporting by venues because of player demand than the WPN currently has. That is a significant reason.



Which I think in the end result if I understand Bill right means more reason for Wizards to continue to produce Star Wars Miniatures int he future. I think that above all else makes this a worthy idea.

_________________
ImageImage
"What is your bidding, My Master?"

Collection: 934/934

SWM DCI Content Manager


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:16 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 1163
Location: Fremont, CA
jonnyb815 wrote:
there is no WPN for minis does that help. there is sealed,constructed,and casual. Giving Star wars RPG there own format would give better numbers for who plays D&D and who plays Star wars. Then giving the people that like to do different formats a reason to report.


I'm not sure why you say this. There's totally WPN support for SWM. Sarah got this for us like 6 months ago.

The only difference for what WPN does for SWM now and what Bill proposes is ratings. That's it.

(I have some minor quibbles with the effect Bill believes it will have but it's so minor it's not really worth discussing. Stuff like arguing that there would be less resistance to a ban--I mean CASUAL players are saying a DCI ban creates a "taboo" on their environment so I'm hardpressed to think any intermediate option will lessen that kind of impact. Still, I basically buy into Bill's concept, but think there's so little chance of executing it I'd rather see him invest his time in something more likely to succeed. Not that he can't do both I guess...)

_________________


Last edited by NickName on Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:18 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
Name Calling Internet Bully
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 10:10 pm
Posts: 6172
Location: Gurnee, IL
NickName wrote:
but think there's so little chance of executing it I'd rather see him invest his time in something more likely to succeed. Not that he can't do both I guess...)

Oh I can :)

_________________
Image

http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/Search.aspx?UserID=29


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:32 pm 
Hall of Fame Member
Hall of Fame Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:57 pm
Posts: 1340
Location: Newport News, Va
Obviously you all know how I feel about this issue. Adding the unlimted, while a convoluted process in it's ealry stages, can help bring a feeling of legitmacy to lots of casual formats, Epic Play, 3 or 4 player games, team games.

I can see it being a pain in the ass to get off the ground, but I see it as closing a huge rift between casual gamers and competetive.

Bill you know I have your back 150% on this. Whatever you need.

_________________
Image

"Micro-managment Breeds Incompetence"

Being a Star Wars Miniatures Hall of Famer is a Responsibilty Not a Priveledge.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Offline
 Post subject: Re: DCI Format Addition Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:39 pm 
Ugnaught Master!
Ugnaught Master!
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:02 pm
Posts: 2948
Location: SW Missouri
Jedicartographer wrote:
Bill you know I have your back 150% on this. Whatever you need.


Oh, crap, you just demonstrated how you can open your mouth and insert both feet! You're doomed, Matt!

Bill, I think it is a great idea, but I also have to look at Jason's side and think it might be too much, too early. I support the idea, of course, and will do whatever I can, but I have a feeling that it will be a slow process, no matter the outcome.

_________________
That's right, it's always the one in the middle you would least expect to be the most dangerous!
ImageImageImage


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours

Mark forums read

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Jedi Knights style by Scott Stubblefield