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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 8:06 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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I am glad they have finally posted the floor rules.

I like the fact that Dean word the GOWK ban so it can be revisited when and if needed.

Congrats to Borris - I love playing dynamic dou. After looking that Boba BH can be could be paired with Kol, I sort of understand the reason for banning him.

I have to say I like Broken Chistophsis. Sure it might be predictable, most people go towards the top, but I still like it.

Tie breakers in tourneys - bare knuckle boxing gets my vote :)

Time per round guidline - 10 minutes per round is what was used at several of the regionals. I think that is a good number to use. I also want to add that i feel it is important to do the time on a per round basis. I know our LGS runs tournaments at either 45 or 50 minutes. I have heard of others that run 70 minute games. So, having a per round time suggestion would be more helpful than rounds per game.

Judges - I think getting the Rules Advisors test back up and going would be a reat first step.

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:29 am 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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Happy they are up. Great job Dean!

Love the new map additions. I'm a little surprised with Broken Christophsis (I love that map), but all in all, I'm very happy.


Last edited by Admiral Ace on Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:40 am 
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Thanks Dean for seeing this through! Your work is appreciated!!

I will say though that I am disappointed with the removal of Christophsis (Broken). I have played and watch numerous games against top players on this map and I haven't seen anything to suggest an unfair game. Like Leshippy said, it may be a predictable game, but it is not an unfair game.

I have said the same things with the Teth Courtyard map too. It's a predictable game and may not be very fun after a game or two, but there is nothing on the map to prevent the normal play of the game to determine the outcome - especially with the rules are map selection and set-up. Sure some squads are going to be better suited on this map, but that can be said to most maps and is part of the strategy in selecting maps.

Predictability and boring games should not be factors in the legalization of a map, it should be on fairness and abuse. They (the 2 above) do serve a purpose for new/younger players who are trying to learn other aspects of the game or trying to focus on their characters rather than the map. There is nothing as abusive on Teth Courtyard or Broken Christophsis than there is on the Hoth Outpost.


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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:45 am 
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Lackey wrote:
There is nothing as abusive on Teth Courtyard or Broken Christophsis than there is on the Hoth Outpost.


I completely agree Bryan.


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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:47 am 
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Teth Courtyard will never be legal its not a fair map and its not balanced at all. I really dont like Taris but its balanced and fair map if your squad can play from the bad side if you have the map. When I play on a map I like to use the full map not just 1/3 of a map. Hoth is very balanced for both sides. Most people like the side with the four save sides I did at one point but I know like the other side. It has saver Gambit.


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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:06 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Well finally. Any idea why they delayed it a full week for, and then why they said thy wouldn't be official till the 17th?


It was delayed a week due to me being on vacation in the middle of the discussion. The date was chosen due to past precidence with it being live on a Friday at least 1 full week in the future.

Quote:
I was quite pleased bby the fact that absolutely nothing and I mean nothing changed from my original submission to posting which means I did not screw anything up!!!


Except for your spelling, formatting, and weird font colors and sizes on the new text. :D But, no, the substantive changes were all cool. Only one got any comment at all and I think it's easy to guess which.

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:36 am 
The One True Sith Lord
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NickName wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Well finally. Any idea why they delayed it a full week for, and then why they said thy wouldn't be official till the 17th?


It was delayed a week due to me being on vacation in the middle of the discussion. The date was chosen due to past precidence with it being live on a Friday at least 1 full week in the future.

Quote:
I was quite pleased bby the fact that absolutely nothing and I mean nothing changed from my original submission to posting which means I did not screw anything up!!!


Except for your spelling, formatting, and weird font colors and sizes on the new text. :D But, no, the substantive changes were all cool. Only one got any comment at all and I think it's easy to guess which.


HAha!! well I got ya there I triple checked my spelling and it was good except for maybe christosis. The format was great and the different colored font was so the changes were easily seen. no way you could miss what was a change I did that for them. Last time I did not do that Larabee about messed it up.

I would think the only comment was look he added the map pack 2 maps.... JK

What I honestly dont get why they waited until after July 1st to talk to you Jason. They had them since before June 1st

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:55 am 
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jonnyb815 wrote:
Teth Courtyard will never be legal its not a fair map and its not balanced at all. I really dont like Taris but its balanced and fair map if your squad can play from the bad side if you have the map. When I play on a map I like to use the full map not just 1/3 of a map. Hoth is very balanced for both sides. Most people like the side with the four save sides I did at one point but I know like the other side. It has saver Gambit.


I have to agree with Lackey here. How is Teth Courtyard unfair? Because it gives a slight advantage to super stealth squads? That's compete crap. The chances of having a SS squad AND getting that side of the map is only if the opponent is an idiot. Yes it will be a boring map and every game will likely end up the same. But Ive yet to see any decent argument as to how it is an "unfair" map. Taris is just as bad, but in the opposite direction. Honestly, I feel the same way about Cristophsis too. The games are fairly predictable, but that doesn't mean it is unfair. Just because a map is boring or predictable is not a reason to take it off the map list. Because the maps are boing to play on, that alone will cause them to not get used very often.

I definitely want to see these maps revisited at a future update.

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:04 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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LoboStele wrote:
jonnyb815 wrote:
Teth Courtyard will never be legal its not a fair map and its not balanced at all. I really dont like Taris but its balanced and fair map if your squad can play from the bad side if you have the map. When I play on a map I like to use the full map not just 1/3 of a map. Hoth is very balanced for both sides. Most people like the side with the four save sides I did at one point but I know like the other side. It has saver Gambit.


I have to agree with Lackey here. How is Teth Courtyard unfair? Because it gives a slight advantage to super stealth squads? That's compete crap. The chances of having a SS squad AND getting that side of the map is only if the opponent is an idiot. Yes it will be a boring map and every game will likely end up the same. But Ive yet to see any decent argument as to how it is an "unfair" map. Taris is just as bad, but in the opposite direction. Honestly, I feel the same way about Cristophsis too. The games are fairly predictable, but that doesn't mean it is unfair. Just because a map is boring or predictable is not a reason to take it off the map list. Because the maps are boing to play on, that alone will cause them to not get used very often.

I definitely want to see these maps revisited at a future update.


who said anything about boring or predictable?

I guess I missed that somewhere. I am glad to here my decisions are complete crap! That is exactly the term they deserve. I like to take my personal feeling out of the loop when deciding maps legality. I make the decision based on fairness.

I am sorry that you dont see the problem with Christosis. I thought it wouldbe obvious to a player like you quite honestly. IF you are on the left and try to get gambit then you have to go thru a kill zone. In a game that could be quite close this seems unfair if your opponent at the end of the round can run out a 3 point reinforcement to score 5 points and get a lead.

Well I could say more but I just dont feel like it now.

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:18 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
But Ive yet to see any decent argument as to how it is an "unfair" map.
Easy. Maps where you are forced to always interact in 1/3 of the area at most are not just boring, but the most abusive. I suspect, if made legal, Tech would be found to be just as abusive as Geonosis was. Remember, that took until gencon 07 until most people caught on to it. I know I abused Starship last year, because I knew which side I would be on and how I could use that to my advantage. The same would be true of Teth. I don't think it's a particularly "bad" map, or significantly worse than some of the others on the list, but I certainly wouldn't be using that as my argument for it either. See below.

LoboStele wrote:
Taris is just as bad, but in the opposite direction. Honestly, I feel the same way about Cristophsis too.
Taris is an awful map. In my opinion, it should have gone as well. I feel stronger about being anti-Taris than anti-Chrystophis. Using that as your example, doesn't make me feel better about Teth. Here's the deal. The primary argument against Rancor pit over the years has been that it forces the action through the middle, but never has it been that only 1/3 of the map will see use. It also has protected gambit, Teth doesn't. Teth is quite highly abusive, and it isn't SS teams that would do it.

I think you guys need to sit down and spent a few weeks trying to abuse a map before you claim it seems ok.

LoboStele wrote:
The games are fairly predictable, but that doesn't mean it is unfair. Just because a map is boring or predictable is not a reason to take it off the map list. Because the maps are boing to play on, that alone will cause them to not get used very often.
Yes it can. Predictable games are ripe for abusive squads. You should understand this by now. Boring to play on should be a consideration as well for DCI play. I am not concerned with the average player getting bored and not using it. No one used Geonosis either because it was boring, but low and behold, it was still easy enough to abuse.

LoboStele wrote:
I definitely want to see these maps revisited at a future update.
Well they will be, every 6 months. I think it's important to send a message to WotC however, that we aren't going to settle for garbage maps that don't take into consideration how the game is played, not just DCI. For example Ossus, it is good for one purpose and that's it, a single scenario. How many of you have used it in the last year? We should be demanding excellence and not just approving maps because they are all we are being given. If WotC can't produce decent DCI maps, then I believe we are under no obligation to approve them for DCI play. A bad map, regardless of if the abuse is evident, is just a map waiting to be banned.

I for one, do not think approving everything and then waiting to see if it's abusive or not is a good way to run DCI. I would much prefer being cautious with borderline things, and dealing with the people who don't understand it. Sorry, if Teth got approved, my Gencon plans would probably revolve around learning how to abuse it, I am doing the same with Taris right now. I think Teth is actually worse than Taris, although they are both pretty similarly bad.

Open gambit was such a bad idea......

As far as Crystophis, it's still pretty bad as well. I just don't agree with the concept that just because one bad map (Taris) is on the list, that means we have to take all of them. Sorry, that doesn't sit well.

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:50 pm 
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[quote="billiv15"][
Open gambit was such a bad idea......
quote]

May I ask why? Is it because it favors shooters over melle? Just wondering. I am sure that you have explained it before, because I know I have heard this point over and over again. I am not trying to be an @$$ I just really want to know what the argument behind the thought is.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:02 pm 
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LESHIPPY wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
[
Open gambit was such a bad idea......
quote]

May I ask why? Is it because it favors shooters over melle? Just wondering. I am sure that you have explained it before, because I know I have heard this point over and over again. I am not trying to be an @$$ I just really want to know what the argument behind the thought is.


Well, it isn't just "open gambit" but on the maps it tends to be an issue on, it's because you can't force your opponent to engage with it. Which pretty much reduces its effect on the game. When neither player can collect it without dying, or worse, when one player can and the other cannot, you force your opponent to cross the map into your trap.

when combined with maps like Taris, Teth or Crystophis, you have basically one way to go, and your opponent, who already knew that ahead of time, gets to set up right away to annihilate you. Then you throw in that they are also using activation control and Lobot, will be able to run a free ugnaught/mouse out into gambit after you are out, collect 5 points, and then retreat to the other side of the map entirely. Now you have to either, try to find a spot to collect gambit of your own (good luck if they are doing this right) or use a big figure to get it (likely losing your big fig or at least major damage to it), or you have to cross the entire map into their camp site. None of those are particularly fair situations.

Its actually just further compounded by melee squads, but isn't primarily a melee-non-melee issue.

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:21 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
HAha!! well I got ya there I triple checked my spelling and it was good except for maybe christosis. The format was great and the different colored font was so the changes were easily seen. no way you could miss what was a change I did that for them. Last time I did not do that Larabee about messed it up.

I would think the only comment was look he added the map pack 2 maps.... JK

What I honestly dont get why they waited until after July 1st to talk to you Jason. They had them since before June 1st


They didn't wait. The discussions went all through June as each regionals results came in. No one took the decision lightly.

Maybe quadruple check next time. :P I recall "Monastary". But yeah, the spelling was better this time overall. The formatting and style were a bit all of the place, but copyediting is not a simple skill to pick up, particularly one's own writing, so it's understandable. I have a lot of experience there. They may have used my final DOC in which case you can have some fun by turning on the change tracking visibility to see how much I did and decide for yourself if it's a little or a lot. Seeing it "redlined" also helps to learn one's own weaknesses for such things.

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:30 pm 
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Thanks Bill

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:37 pm 
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Bill, I understand what you're saying, though I'm typing on my iPod here while on vacation, so it is tough, and I'll maybe respond better next week when I get back. We definitely do need to let WOTC know that we need better maps. And I certainly can see how my view is more of a "well if Taris is going to be on there then we may as well add the other ones." Wasnt meaning for it to sound that way. Guess I just think that until we get some better maps, these ones aren't THAT abusive. Maybe I just haven't been exposed to the abuse yet. To the point that some people have made though, if the maps are never made legal, it is tougher to determine how abusive it can be.

As for Dean's decision on the maps, I didn't say it was crap, just that I thought some of the logic behind it was bad. Dean, you didn't consult anyone before suggesting the change in the floor rules for cristophsis, and when you let the RAC know your intentions, I wasn't the only one who disagreed with you. So, was just voicing my opinion again.

Personally, at our LGS, we are a of more relaxed about the map usage and yet no one has tried to use Teth or Nelvaan. If it is just a concern for Regional or GenCon events, then do a restricted map list like last year.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:13 am 
The One True Sith Lord
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LoboStele wrote:
Bill, I understand what you're saying, though I'm typing on my iPod here while on vacation, so it is tough, and I'll maybe respond better next week when I get back. We definitely do need to let WOTC know that we need better maps. And I certainly can see how my view is more of a "well if Taris is going to be on there then we may as well add the other ones." Wasnt meaning for it to sound that way. Guess I just think that until we get some better maps, these ones aren't THAT abusive. Maybe I just haven't been exposed to the abuse yet. To the point that some people have made though, if the maps are never made legal, it is tougher to determine how abusive it can be.

As for Dean's decision on the maps, I didn't say it was crap, just that I thought some of the logic behind it was bad. Dean, you didn't consult anyone before suggesting the change in the floor rules for cristophsis, and when you let the RAC know your intentions, I wasn't the only one who disagreed with you. So, was just voicing my opinion again.

Personally, at our LGS, we are a of more relaxed about the map usage and yet no one has tried to use Teth or Nelvaan. If it is just a concern for Regional or GenCon events, then do a restricted map list like last year.



Well Aaron the thing is Christosis was my experiment mine alone. I allowed it intot he floor rules against probably my better judgement to see what it would be like. Tanner was not real hot on it and looking back I think he was right. I did consult people on the Christosis decision. You knew about it and it was explained to you. Because you did not agree with my decision does not mean logic was bad. As I watched games played on it they played out the same 90% of the time. So did I ban it because it was boring or predictable? No I don't even know where that term came from. I have never and I mean never used that for data for my decisions about maps. So I dont want anyone thinking that is what I do. My "bad logic" had to do with the fact the map was unbalanced as far as gambit was concerned and unfortunately at a big tourney that could be the difference between a win and a loss. So I took it off. If you want to have a gentleman's agreement at your store then what I dont know wont hurt me. But in a big tourney where it could effect a game I decided that because one side has a decidedly harder time obtaining gambit than the other that it was unbalanced.

I have consulted people I talk to about these things and asked them what they have heard from me about my decision making process. I asked them what is the term I use. They responded with the word fair. Not boring nor the word predictable. Fairness is what DCI is about and what I must judge by. Christosis was an experiment and I got my answer. You said I did not consult people well that is not true. I consulted by observing their games. I watched how games played out. Many people have no idea that I was consulting them at the moment but they certainly were giving me a wealth of information. I used that information for my decision. I overturned a bad decision I made.

People talk about Taris and other maps being terrible. I have never disagreed with those folks about their opinions on the maps. To be honest though the maps are not about my personal preference. There are plenty that are legal that I personally hate. I go back to my litmus test of are they fair. Are there some bad maps that are legal? I think so. You want my list? Well here it is:

Taris
Hoth Outpost
Rattack Arena
Teth Monastary

None of those maps do I personally like. But are they unbalanced (meaning is there an exploitable advantage to one side or the other on them)? Not really. Do some of them have open gambit? yup and I hate it. Are they fair? Yes they may suck but they are fair to both opponents. Maps are never going to be perfect and some things must be overcome I get that but I have to make a decision.

Saying that Teth courtyard is a fair map and should be included is something I just cannot agree with. Would it suck to face a cloaked squad on that map? Yes. Could it be an auto-loss? Yes Do those two things cause it to be excluded from the list? No

So what did? The fact that the bad side of the map has to make it thru one door that is set in a shooting gallery for the opponent. I cannot accept this as a fair situation. I am sorry that you and LAckey disagree with me. But I find it disheartening to see the words "That's Complete Crap." I guess it would not matter except I have told you how hard I have worked to on maps for the floor rules. I have told you how agonizing it is for those decisions. I have told you about how hard in the past it has been to fight with Scott Larabee or whoever is working in this position this week in DCI is. I have worked hard at keeping this map list fair and balanced. I have worked hard to keep my personal preferences out of it (like I would sell my soul to get Bespin legal at 200). I have had a ton of doors slammed in my face since I have been involved in DCI and at times I have wanted to scream from the roof tops and on the forums about some of the crap that some folks in DCI have said about Star Wars. But I have had to just plug along and keep going.

I guess the assumption because Lackey said I base my decisions or whether a map is boring or predictable is kind of sticking in my craw. I have never said that to you. Well the map is boring. SO I nixed. I dont like snow. So I nixed it. I mean it just makes it seem like to you and others that read your post that I just have random reasons for making a decision. Well my lamination is coming apart on my Mustafar map so I banned it. That just comes across as totally wrong. I have never spoken to Lackey about how I make a decision. He said boring and predictable.... you then ran with it. So how many other people will not run with that.

I dont mind if you totally disagree with the decisions made (whether they are mine or not) that is your right. But you being an important member of the community, saying something like that about the decision making process.... well someone is going to believe it because you said it. Fine you dont like it.... that is cool. But dont characterize my decision making process to be something so flippant. Because it just isnt true

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:22 am 
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Dean, you know I respect you and the effort it takes to do the floor rules. Sorry if I was making it appear that way.

I guess it is just a matter of me not ever seeing cristophsis abused the way some of you guys claim. I trust your judgements on it, and frankly it really makes no difference to me in the end. I just prsonally feel like games on MANY maps play out the same way 90% of games, so if that's the reasoning for cristophsis, then that's way we don't understand/agree with it. 80% of games, the player on the 'good' side can't safely get gambit either without their 3 point piece getting picked off. The map roll asists with this because if you know you're opponent has tempo control, then you don't select cristophsis when you know the opponent will get the 'good' side. I guess we just feel like the map/side roll naturally allows smart players to avoid those potential problems.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 8:39 am 
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If I recall correctly, boring and predictable were used when people were talking about how bad the Anikan map pack sucked. I am not saying that Dean said this, I am just saying I believe that is where that it stemmed from.

Now getting away from the map debate... It is reassuring to know that the decision to ban GOWK had lengthy intelligent discussion before the final decision was made.

I feel that our efforts should now be directed at the three issues that need to be addressed. Instead of something that will not change for at least another 6 months.

Time limits or suggestions??
Tie Breakers in tournaments??
Qualified judges??

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:10 pm 
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GOWK: no surprise and I just hope now we can move on with the game. I know a lot of tempers have flared around this and i try to keep an open mind but right now i think some people fight just to fight.

DD: totaly awsome and it is a great format that is fun to play. at our LGS we usally play on titles and do 3 torunys since they go so fast and the best score wins. I can see why BF BH was banned but i don't think he was really ran any way just becasue he does not have the damage output to be competivite at the format

Christophis: I played a few games on this map and I sort of liked it and always got stuck on the broken bridge side. I know it has been said it is not fair and the same but the same could be said about rancor pit as well since it has only one way in and out. I know tis debat should be on antoerh thread so I won't go into this.

Dean I know you have taken a lot of flak over this but I hope you still continue to keep up the good work and try not to take it to personally.

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 Post subject: Re: OK The Floor Rules are UP
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:17 pm 
Master of the Order
Master of the Order
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As much as I hate open Gambit for all of the reasons Bill laid out as well as a few other reasons, I don't think we should remove any more maps from the game. As Rob once said directly to me, it's only a 50/50 chance to play on any particular map, meaning the map roll at the beginning of the game dictates what will happen.

But until Chris West makes more maps, removing many of the ones that we have gotten in the last year is like saying they were never really made at all, as far as sanctioned play is concerned. Let's give it a year and if there are 3 or 4 more maps out there by then, particularly ones that are solid for skirmish play, then maybe we could look at removing some of the current ones. But I think there should always be one or two on the list that are very shooter friendly. I don't mind the presence of Taris all that much.

What would be nice for the Championship is if we could do what the DDM Championship used to do at GenCon, and that is rotate the map that can be played on each round.

For example:

Round 1 - Death Star
Round 2 - Muunilist Command Center
Round 3 - Taris
Round 4 - Chancellor's Throne Room
Round 5 - Death Star
Round 6 - Hall of Judgement
Round 7- Rancor Pen

But it's not really practical.

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