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 Post subject: Bidding and the problems with it?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:00 pm 
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I have given up on the wizards forum thread. I just can't get my points made on that forum. I dunno why, but it just is hostile right now.

So, anyway, I am posting here with a new topic on:
If KMG is banned, what are the pros and cons to bidding versus rolling for map/side?

Pros of bidding:
Reduces luck of pre-game setup. You are in direct control of where you want to play and which side you want.

Cons of bidding:
Cumbersome
Time consuming
Does not solve anything and further imbalances the game!?

I truly do not think that it will be time consuming to bid. Perhaps the first few times, but after a while, one should have a feeling for what each map/side is worth to them. As far as it being cumbersome, I do not understand how. And as far as the final negative, this is when I had to bow out of the thread at wizards because I was flabbergasted.

So, are the cons worse then the single pro? Do I have an imbalanced thought that control is that much more important then luck in this game?

How about blind bidding (exactly one bid for map then 1 bid for side (ties rebid, tie bid of 0 is a roll off for map/side))? I think this would flat out solve the time complaint, and still have the mental guesswork on what is the best bid for the map/side.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:56 pm 
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yeah I also like the 200 format the best, though at my LGS, we are allowed to use pretty much any map besides hoth and endor, but no one ever uses korriban, mustafar, or the geonosis arena so its not really much of an issue for me. But since I"m probably going to Gencon next year, I would say that K.M.G should be banned.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:23 pm 
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If KMG is banned, what are the pros and cons to bidding versus rolling for map/side?


Well, banning those maps pretty much solves the major problem with the map roll so I'd say the major con would become that it's fixing something that isn't broken anymore.

If I bring my shooters on Death Star over melee on Muun I'd prefer DS but the margin is small enough that I don't feel signficantly disadvantaged otherwise. I wouldn't want to bid 15 points plus for almost any map/squad combo I can think of because I'm expecting close games. Maybe getting Mos Eisley with Nom Bombs might be worth it...?

So it potentially becomes a situation where everyone is bidding 5 or 0 and no one wants to bid more to break the tie. (So you introduce a die roll to break ties and then we're right back to what we have without bidding.)

Of the two bidding options I'd rather have sealed bid. The back and forth does not sound appealing to me. It's something of an emotional response--it's hard to put into words exactly why. I guess it's just the desire for less and less pregame minutia. Forget tiles--takes too long. Reduce the multiple rolls to one roll. Remove the decisions on the roll, and just have high choose map and low place first. Can we somehow get rid of Reinforcements too? :P


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:31 am 
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I'm with the drop it to one roll for map with the loser picking side people. Anything (within reason) that speads up pregame setup is a plus to me.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:21 am 
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Woah....since I'm not able to read the boards at work now, and rarely sit down to read them from home.....what is going on? What is this bidding concept? Sounds weird. I'd rather we just ban KMG and change map to one roll (loser picks side) and be done with it!


p.s. I guess September came and went without a DCI change, huh?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:36 am 
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Yep, no changes yet. :/

Its kind of a long story. You should read the KMG ban thread if you can get it from home, but i believe the gist of it is that you bid gambit points to choose map. The person who bids highest gets map and spots the other person that many gambit points.

I really don't think it changes the unbalanced maps at all.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:42 am 
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People, please, I am past the issue of banning KMG. This is asking if KMG is banned, would bidding be better then the current method of choosing map/side?

Is it better then the possible change of 1 roll choosing map/side? Side question: Do you prefer the winner of the roll being able to defer, or a fixed high roll picks map, low roll picks side?

...
Actually, this argument holds for leaving KMG in play as well. IF KMG are not banned, what would be the most balanced way (balanced in complexity, and gameplay) to choose map/side?

I have resigned myself to knowing that this is NOT the solution I was hoping to find to keep KMG in play, I still hope there is one.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:03 am 
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Well from what i can determine i think it's the following, correct me if i'm wrong.

At the start of the game, each player bids a certain number of (squad points? Gambit points? Plain old point?) for the map/side they want. Whoever bids the most gets what they want. If it's a tie bid more.
Or with the blind bidding, Bid just once, higher gets what they want.

That about sums up what i can figure to be the bidding system.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:06 am 
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I think bidding would take more focus away from winning by killing pieces for points, and i do not like that. In your first post you say bidding takes the luck out of the opening procedures. If you are open bidding it does, but it then becomes a game unto itself. How high can i bid up my opponent before i get stuck.

I really only want the only points being scored coming from killing figs. I understand gambit is a necessary evil to forgo camping.

It sounds like a lot of people are in favor of the simplest start up of winner gets map and loser gets side. Its easy, quick and effective. I really don't see any drawbacks to it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:19 am 
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Wow....OK, the bidding thing sounds weird. And dumb at that. I think NickName's right that most people would just end up bidding 0 or 5. I guess it would depend on which point in the set-up process you get to bid. After I see my opponent's squad? After I know what his map is? I guess if the system was well-thought out enough, I can see it working OK. But honestly, I still think the most balancing option is still the winner of init roll chooses if they want to choose map or side. Then the opponent chooses the other part. This alone would keep people from abusing Mustafar and Geonosis for the most part. Granted, all melee vs. a ranged squad with KMG is still going to be at a disadvantage if the melee squad loses that roll, but at least they'll be able to choose the favorable side of the map.

Honestly, 9 times out of 10 I would much rather choose sides than choose map, so I think the option to defer should be there. But that bidding thing sounds like it's just asking for trouble. I think depending on the squad I was facing, I would almost certainly be willing to bid 15-20 gambit points if it gave me a significant advantage. The root problem is not in how the maps are chosen, it is in what maps are available.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:32 am 
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Fool wrote:
sorry if I haven't been keeping up can some describe "bidding" in a nutshell?


Sure
1) Reveal squads, reveal map choice
2) Start bidding gambit points (increments of 5). Roll off high roll starts bidding for map choice (starts at 0). High bid wins map choice and awards the opponent with gambit points. Proceed to side choice, low roll starts bidding at 0. High bid wins side choice and awards opponent with gambit points.
3) Side winner deploys first and the game proceeds normally (with accumulated gambit points already).

Mirror matchups, the bidding will end at 0 for map choice, but the side choice bidding could build up.

Blind bidding is one bid only, done in secret. Once revealed, ties are re-bid. If the tie is at 0 points, roll off for choice.

The idea is that the person who wants their choices the most is now forced to engage the enemy. The person who lost the bid can engage on their own terms because they are ahead on points.

...

It is my feeling that with KMG banned, there are still very uneven maps (starship is my goto example of this, there are others). With the random die roll, the lesser side still gets screwed with the current system. With the winner = map, loser = side, this solves a lot except the mirror/equally uneven maps in which the loser map roll remains all important.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:37 am 
Death Star Designers
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While I agree that the starship map does have a gambit favored side, i don't see it as an unbalanced map. You can advance up the side by staying in the rooms before you pounce. Also it is a much smaller map, so you arent going as far. I also run a swoop bike just to get the gambit from the bad side.

After KMG, there are maps that have favored sides, but none have extreme unbalance enough to cause problems. To me the rancor pit has harder gambit from teh bad side than starship.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:09 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Honestly, 9 times out of 10 I would much rather choose sides than choose map, so I think the option to defer should be there.


At which point I say that the side roll is still too all important even with it being one roll. With a fixed high roll = map, low roll = side, then randomness remains random instead of randomness dictating strategy.

I guess this gets into my core beliefs of this game and major problems with it: I hate important roll offs in this game. Init is another one, and I would love to see some sort of strategy option for init versus an all important roll.


...


How about this option: A generic point pool where you can alter your die roll by X points based on what is left in your pool. Lets say both players start with (random figure generator...) 10 points. Before *any* die roll, you can boost your outcome by 1 for each point you spend. Map roll, side roll, init, attack, save, whatever.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:31 am 
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I think you are trying to reinvent the wheel here. I really do not think that you can change the factor rolls play in this game without rebuilding it from scratch.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:04 pm 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
I think you are trying to reinvent the wheel here. I really do not think that you can change the factor rolls play in this game without rebuilding it from scratch.


I prefer to think of it as smoothing out the wheel. The wheel as is is pretty screwed up at times. I also think that my quick and dirty final paragraph does change the factor rolls play without rebuilding it.

It has been generalized before, but the game might come down to one or two die rolls. If you could influence those die rolls, wouldn't you? If those rolls are map or side choice? If those rolls are the 4th or 5th init? If those rolls are a critical 11+ save? Or a 9+ to hit Vader JH with LV for the kill?

When do you save them? When do you use them? A lot of games I have played over the years have 'Leadership Points' or something like this.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:00 pm 
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I prefer to think of it as smoothing out the wheel. The wheel as is is pretty screwed up at times. I also think that my quick and dirty final paragraph does change the factor rolls play without rebuilding it.


Not so hot on it being a universal rule, but this would make a cool ability (Balance in the Force!) It would need to be worded carefully.

Under your plan my Boba only needs a 10 to Disintegrate whoever I want that doesn't have a Bodyguard.

And I'm getting Reserves any roll within 3 of my needed roll which likely means 2-3 times a game.

But a commander that gives the player some of this kind of control would be very interesting for players who want to minimize the dice some.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:25 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Under your plan my Boba only needs a 10 to Disintegrate whoever I want that doesn't have a Bodyguard.

And I'm getting Reserves any roll within 3 of my needed roll which likely means 2-3 times a game.


I mean to decide what bonus you will add, but add it to the final number (similar to combined fire). You still need to roll a 'natural 20' or whatever to get specific results. However, you now made your result D20 + X.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:52 am 
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I'd say that something like that would DEFINITELY have to be declared BEFORE the roll is made. For instance, a Jedi can't use the Force to alter a situation after it has already occurred, he has to use the Force during the situation. Granted, I know that's using logic, but you see my point.

And I agree, it would definitely have to be a bonus that is added, but doesn't affect the 'natural' roll of the dice. I like NickName's suggestion of "Balance in the Force" for an SA name. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:34 am 
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Yep, you decide on what you spend before the roll is made. Basically, it works just like Combined Fire. How sure do you want to be that the next roll is a 'success'. Be it an attack, save, init, or map/side roll.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:48 am 
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Ah, I got it backwards. I thought you meant after seeing the results of the die.

In that case, I think the value is limited, assuming the 10 points total. Basically, the best use would be to make a single important Save 100%. Throwing +3's around an attacks or inits still will end up leaving you burned by a bad roll commonly enough.

The whole idea is veering far away from the whole map bidding concept. There's a very neat ability/power/ce in this concept. As a general rule, it seems unnecessary to me.

A thread about what new/revised general rules would help the game would be an interesting conversation.


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