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 Post subject: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:36 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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So I sent an email to Sarah asking about the floor rules update and I was told in response that they were waiting for Jason Tanner (Nickname) to get back from vacation and he would be helping them do the update.

Which to me says one thing. They want to rethink banning GOWK at the last minute, didn't take the time to discuss it in the previous month since it was submitted or decided to talk to people other than Dean about it for some odd reason. Either way, I don't think this is a good thing, but I will be guardedly optimistic.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:26 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
So I sent an email to Sarah asking about the floor rules update and I was told in response that they were waiting for Jason Tanner (Nickname) to get back from vacation and he would be helping them do the update.

Which to me says one thing. They want to rethink banning GOWK at the last minute, didn't take the time to discuss it in the previous month since it was submitted or decided to talk to people other than Dean about it for some odd reason. Either way, I don't think this is a good thing, but I will be guardedly optimistic.



Thats basicaly the same pm i got when i asked her and iron about dealing with the GOWK thread,her exact wording was after next weekend there would be an announcement,if you would like i can post the whole pm message.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:41 pm 
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ender_ wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
So I sent an email to Sarah asking about the floor rules update and I was told in response that they were waiting for Jason Tanner (Nickname) to get back from vacation and he would be helping them do the update.

Which to me says one thing. They want to rethink banning GOWK at the last minute, didn't take the time to discuss it in the previous month since it was submitted or decided to talk to people other than Dean about it for some odd reason. Either way, I don't think this is a good thing, but I will be guardedly optimistic.



Thats basicaly the same pm i got when i asked her and iron about dealing with the GOWK thread,her exact wording was after next weekend there would be an announcement,if you would like i can post the whole pm message.


sure - let's see it.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:20 am 
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I've been thinking about this after reading Bill's post earlier tonight, and I'm predicting that they are in fact not going to ban GOWK but instead remove either Mettle/MotF2 or change Mettle so it doesn't stack (or possibly change his cost?). In a lot of threads people were saying if they just made one of those changes then GOWK would be fine or something to that effect, but there is still a large crowd arguing for his ban. One reason I'm thinking of this is because they want to consult with NN first, and whenever I think of anyone needing to consult with NN it makes me think of a change in rules (which I guessing a ban could be considered that as well).

Either way, I'm intrigued as to what exactly is going to happen. Sounds like it might not exactly be what we think it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 1:58 am 
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Here it is....

WotC_Sarah wrote:
Hi TS,

Thanks for the heads-up. I've been working on it with Nickname and Ironlightsaber - we hope to have an announcement about this on the boards after next weekend.

Sarah


EDIT: btw the message is dated from monday

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Things i've said in the past that got dismissed and now are being talked about:
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Some chosing not to play the game if and when another company picks it up without the current mechanics


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:43 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:27 am 
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While Bill's assessment could be a total possibility, it could also just be because this is a holiday week and they don't have anyone to post it up. I know they did the MTG update a week early because of this, but then again I guess you could then argue why didn't they post it early like MTG then? :P

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:40 am 
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Grrr....absolutely nothing against NickName, but I know he doesn't feel as passionate about this as some of the rest of us, and he may not represent the 'ban him' community as well as I'd like. On the other hand, he is more in the 'middle of the road' on this whole debate, so he may be the best person for Sarah/Rob to converse with, since he doesn't seem to lean one way or the other.

If they are seriously considering another errata to GOWK, then need to be ridiculously careful with how they do it, otherwise, we're just going to continue to have the same problem. Granted, we've all said that making a change to GOWK would be better than banning him, but it'll be one of those things that we will still have the problem that a lot of people will not be happy after the change. If he's banned, some people will be upset about that. If they errata him again, I see a few possibilities

- Errata isn't drastic enough, and he's still a problem (i.e. changing Mettle so it doesn't stack - really doesn't change the statistics enough to make a difference)
- Errata is too drastic, and he's no longer playable competitively (personally, I'd be fine with this one, and would prefer it, as it would kill both birds with one stone, by making GOWK effectively no longer played in competitive tourneys, but also keep him from being banned)
- Errata changes the 'flavor' of GOWK too much such that people get all wrapped around the axle about SSM not being like "in universe" anymore.

Should be interesting that's for sure. This is all VERY frustrating though. After all of the discussion the past two months, and letters written to Sarah and Customer Service, they wait till the LAST MINUTE to start doing stuff like this. The whole point of having the Floor Rules update on July 1st was to give it enough time between the Floor Rules announcement and GenCon for people to properly prepare and practice. Every week that gets delayed just makes things that much more frustrating. Sigh....time to write Sarah another email I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:52 am 
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If GOWK doesn't get banned and some of the other changes go through I think we could be in a world of hurt. Keeping him and hurting ways to counter him won't be pretty at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:14 am 
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Maybe they will take off SSM and give him lightsaber defence. that would work in my opinion but i hope to hell they don't screw this up.

i am wondering if all of the anti ban people finnaly did take everyones advice and just flooded them with pms and e-mails not to ban gowk but hopefully they look at it closely and get the actual facts and not just people saying he can be beat

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:34 am 
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Thanks for the info, I was wondering why the boards weren't all freaking out yet.

Haven't paid much attention to the GOWK threads lately, I hope if they errata GOWK's card or some abilities rather than banning him, that they find the proper balance so he's playable but not overpowering. I love his CE and it would be great to try him out with Antarean Rangers.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:51 am 
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barzillai wrote:
Thanks for the info, I was wondering why the boards weren't all freaking out yet.

Haven't paid much attention to the GOWK threads lately, I hope if they errata GOWK's card or some abilities rather than banning him, that they find the proper balance so he's playable but not overpowering. I love his CE and it would be great to try him out with Antarean Rangers.


I think we all agree, this would be the ideal. Although, the only errata that I have really liked was to simply change SSM to Lightsaber Defense. Removing MotF2, Mettle, etc doesn't seem to do enough in my book. But if they are to do something, I would give it a chance I suppose.

Worst case scenario, is they are going to ask Nickname if he really thinks it needs to be banned, he will say no, and nothing is done. If that's the case, I don't know for sure what I will do, but odds are I probably won't play as much as I have in the past. I told Moses last year that I would defend my title at Gencon (because each of the previous winners has not been able to or was not willing to). But I might have to seriously consider going back on that statement if nothing is done.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:54 am 
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Am I the only one who sees a coming storm if a ban doesn't come through where Nickname ends up mangled under the bus? While I also think GOWK should be banned due to his gross distortion to the game, I'd much rather see errata No 2 to keep him in play to keep the ban door sealed shut. Since he's been adjusted once it had seemd that another would be out of the question. It's also possible that regionals didn't bring the numbers needed to ban. He's still a big problem, but didn't live up to the catastrophe that was promised....which is in a way unfortuanate.

It sounds like this has gone on for so long and people have become so entangled in the ban crusade that anything else will cause an uproar. I feel really bad for NN at this point.

Of course they'd have to be careful with errata no 2, but at least that'd keep him in play. The subtle difference between Yoda and GOWK squads would be interesting to see. Maybe I'm nuts for being so open to WOTC's decision on this...
:mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:02 am 
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Yeah, I am pretty sure the storm is coming one way or the other at this point. Everyone brace for impact!

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:07 am 
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Haha

Well, I think whatever happens though, we need to keep NickName separate from it, at least in our responses. Ultimately, it is WOTC's decision on how to fix the problem. I'm not really sure what sort of impact they have in terms of altering the Floor Rules, or keeping DCI from posting them as is. But regardless of what input NN may give to Sarah/Rob, it is still WOTC's ultimate decision, and I truly believe that NN is just like any of the rest of us in terms of having his voice heard. He may be a bit more likely to be heard because of his position, but if "this doesn't go the way we'd like it to" (whatever your definition of that may be), then it's certainly not "NickName's fault" and there's no reason for him to be accosted as such.

I also agree that I believe the scariest thing would be for WOTC to do nothing. If they do nothing, then I hope they at least announce to let us know that there IS a fix coming in a later set, and that we just have to be patient. That's still a bit scary though, because it depends on how well that fix was play-tested and such, which is what put us in this problem to start with.

All along, I have been hoping that a fix of some sort would happen, and we wouldn't have to open this ban door. On the one hand, I'm supremely excited that this might be happening. On the other hand, I'm very frustrated that it's happened SO late in the game. Eleventh hour and all that. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:15 am 
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Well they like to ignore the fact that SWM is the top selling miniature game out their right now, they have ignored all of the internet errors on the boards that would take 5 mins to fix, ignored the slowness of the updates and etteras that need to come out, and now I really hate to think that they are going to ignore the biggest disturbance in this game and not fix him or do nothing at all which right now is their track record :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:25 am 
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punxnbutter wrote:
Am I the only one who sees a coming storm if a ban doesn't come through where Nickname ends up mangled under the bus? While I also think GOWK should be banned due to his gross distortion to the game, I'd much rather see errata No 2 to keep him in play to keep the ban door sealed shut. Since he's been adjusted once it had seemd that another would be out of the question. It's also possible that regionals didn't bring the numbers needed to ban. He's still a big problem, but didn't live up to the catastrophe that was promised....which is in a way unfortuanate.

It sounds like this has gone on for so long and people have become so entangled in the ban crusade that anything else will cause an uproar. I feel really bad for NN at this point.

Of course they'd have to be careful with errata no 2, but at least that'd keep him in play. The subtle difference between Yoda and GOWK squads would be interesting to see. Maybe I'm nuts for being so open to WOTC's decision on this...
:mrgreen:


I'm kinda with Punx here; I'm not sure how it will play out, but I'm curious. They've errata'd him once; it's not really out of the realm of possibility they just do it again. Everyone here has agreed that is the best option; why wouldn't they take it? Modal thinking is bad (Black or White).

Or, they say "no ban, but we have lots of ways to deal with it already coming in the next set."


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:31 am 
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LoboStele wrote:

Ultimately, it is WOTC's decision on how to fix the problem.


But see to me that's the issue. What happens if is becomes no longer their issue to fix? I think they have already made their decision. I believe there have been warnings all along. Rob saying he knew nothing about an intiative rule change therefore putting all the community pressure back on Dean and Jason. I am thinking Rob and WOTC are standing by the rule book and anything outside of that is less of a priority for them. We already know that GOWK is the way Rob wants him. WOTC and DCI have already kicked the Rules Advisory test out. The judges test will only be on SWMRAC.org (if it comes to fruition), how long before DCI pulls out all together? At this point in time this theory is a stretch, but that doesn't make it any less plausible. All I know is that the community is divided already. If DCI pulls the plug on competive play and it becomes the Dean show then whoa baby, I will have my popcorn ready cause it will be one heck of a show!

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:37 am 
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Cybit wrote:
Or, they say "no ban, but we have lots of ways to deal with it already coming in the next set."


Which is OK, if it really ends up being true. Again, Rob and Co. figured GOWK was OK to start with, that's why the produced him the way he is. There's been times in the past where Rob designed a 'counter' to something, but it in the overall meta, it was too weak against other things in order to really be effective (or there were other better choices which kept it from being useful enough).

The problem with this though, is that it makes for a mess for this year's GenCon. There have already been quite a few top-level players who didn't participate last year at GenCon because of the PAX stuff, and there have been several who have said they'll likely not play this year either if GOWK is still around, including the defending champion. That's not healthy for the game either, IMO. Plus, you still have to consider that there's the time between when the errata went live, and when the counters become realized in the Galaxy at War or Dark Times set, and if that gap in between there is long enough for people to get bored/frustrated with GOWK and stop playing the game. It's tough to tell people "Just wait, it'll get better" when there's not really any history to directly support that. We've never had something like this before, so we've never had experience with waiting to see if the WOTC design team can accurately come up with a fix. So it's tough to just "wait and see", because that's asking a good deal of faith.

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But see to me that's the issue. What happens if is becomes no longer their issue to fix? I think they have already made their decision. I believe there have been warnings all along. Rob saying he knew nothing about an intiative rule change therefore putting all the community pressure back on Dean and Jason. I am thinking Rob and WOTC are standing by the rule book and anything outside of that is less of a priority for them. We already know that GOWK is the way Rob wants him. WOTC and DCI have already kicked the Rules Advisory test out. The judges test will only be on SWMRAC.org (if it comes to fruition), how long before DCI pulls out all together? At this point in time this theory is a stretch, but that doesn't make it any less plausible. All I know is that the community is divided already. If DCI pulls the plug on competive play and it becomes the Dean show then whoa baby, I will have my popcorn ready cause it will be one heck of a show!


Heh, yeah, that will get interesting. But you know what, if WOTC washes their hands of it, then DCI will be free to do whatever they want, which is just fine, IMO. If people want to continue to fuss and such about DCI, then they'll have one of two options: 1) start stepping up and helping out with DCI, and get themselves to a point where they can be on the RAC or part of the DCI leadership, etc., or 2) come up with their own plan for sanctioning events, a la, what we'd discussed here on gamers a couple times a while back.

I don't see WOTC walking away from gamers in terms of DCI though. WOTC will still use DCI for tracking MTG and RPG stuff. So if anything, there's always the possibility that DCI will drop SWM altogether. But I think WOTC is smart enough to know that doing that could kill the game just as easily as anything else.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rule Update Next week
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 11:17 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
I don't see WOTC walking away from gamers in terms of DCI though. WOTC will still use DCI for tracking MTG and RPG stuff.


The RPG side is the RPGA,which has focused on D&D for the most part,and i've been in dicussion with wolfstar (the RPGA forums VCL) in getting the highers up to get a GM test for the SWRPG. I think that if they do stop DCI,which i realy hope doesn't happen, the Minis will just become like the DDM as a direct tie into the RPG.....

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