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 Post subject: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:28 pm 
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So, it seems pretty clear in my mind that Dean and Nickname have already submitted GOWK's banning and it will happen in the July 1st Floor rules update.( I am guessing here so don't attack me as I have ZERO inside information on this) So, the question becomes what does the world look like post GOWK? My first question will be should GOWK be alone? Why isn't Boba BH with him? What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Boba BH is not overly powerful in his own. He has a 5% chance, per attack, of eliminating (almost) any character from the board. He has a high attack value, great SA's, and good defense. He is not, however, an indestructible character with an amazing CE, as GOWK is.
I think, as has been stated so many times, that taking GOWK out of the DCI equation stops the game from being "SWM Checkers," with GOWK and Anti-GOWK the main choices. It will return the game to where it was before we got the correct ruling on SSM, and that makes me very happy.
However, I do believe that Boba BH will be mentioned in the new Floor Rules in some respect. We'll just have to wait and see.

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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:56 pm 
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dvader831 wrote:
Boba BH is not overly powerful in his own. He has a 5% chance, per attack, of eliminating (almost) any character from the board. He has a high attack value, great SA's, and good defense. He is not, however, an indestructible character with an amazing CE, as GOWK is.
I think, as has been stated so many times, that taking GOWK out of the DCI equation stops the game from being "SWM Checkers," with GOWK and Anti-GOWK the main choices. It will return the game to where it was before we got the correct ruling on SSM, and that makes me very happy.
However, I do believe that Boba BH will be mentioned in the new Floor Rules in some respect. We'll just have to wait and see.


I see this thrown around a lot, that Boba BH has only a 5% chance. But down the line I think he will be banned. Lady Hothie already pointed out that over the course of the game, the odds are way better than 5% of a big D, and as someone who has seen it happen from both sides of the table (winning and losing), I think the correlation of abilities is really unfair. Such random, uncounterable (and yes I know you can run a bodyguard or some other gimmick trick, but that's beside the point) elimination of a single piece really removes all skill when it occurs. I have beaten players better than me by rolling the big D, and I have lost to people who were less experienced by the same margin.

The other issue with it is there is an emerging squad that centers around making as many shots with Boba as possible through the use of Bothan Nobles. If Boba is making all the attacks, guess which attacker is rolling a 20 when the time comes.

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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:26 pm 
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it will still be a razors edge at the top.

GWOK or no GOWK.

The top squads will just be less intuitive.

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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:40 pm 
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With GOWK I am really at the point I don't care one way or the other. I have squads that I will play with him in the Meta and Ideas for interesting stuff with him removed.

If we are actually banning pieces though...I really would prefer General Dodonna being the first on that list. Way ahead of GOWK and/or Boba BH. Dropping Dodonna from competitive play may actually allow Mando's, OR (after JA) and Sith to compete on the same level as everything else. Despite how much I play Ozzel and San Hill...I really wouldn't mind banning all tempo control pieces (don't care about tarkin and morlish). After playtesting alot of Yobuck, GOWK and republic squads...I realized how much more fun the game is without tempo control. Play republic against republic felt like how the game should be. Besides republic and sometimes rebel...great squads can be beaten much easier by tempo control squads because of how hard squads can hit at the end of round. Obviously some maps like echobase change the game enough that tempo control doesn't really help. Meta restriction is the best arguement for banning GOWK and tempo control restricts the meta much more than GOWK.

It's really sad when despite all the interesting sith lords and jedi additons to OR and Sith...most players are saying "Damn, I wish they would have made a Saul with tempo control".

And I imagine many disagree with me. But really, think about the game where faction doesn't decide who has the activation advantage. 4/9 factions having that huge of an advantage is a a bit too much. Also tempo control is much more of an issue for Melee than Ranged chars. Advancing to melee range is much more challenging without tempo control when you are playing against tempo control. Playing ranged chars on a fairly open map can negate alot of the benefit of tempo control but really it wouldn't hurt the game to be a bit more melee friendly.

Republic has a hell of a lot going for the faction. With R2, Rex, Swap and Yobuck all as options...crossing the map is much easier and harder to stop. So obviously they are the exception.


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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:58 pm 
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This is the problem with banning any piece-once one gets banned, everyone begins to point to the next one that "should" be banned! I couldn't be more against banning ANY figure including GOWK. Bunch of whiners....


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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:09 am 
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mommasboy wrote:
This is the problem with banning any piece-once one gets banned, everyone begins to point to the next one that "should" be banned! I couldn't be more against banning ANY figure including GOWK. Bunch of whiners....

I kinda have to agree. I'm against the ban because then people will be begging for someone else to be banned. You can make it a house rule to "ban" him, but I don't think it should be a set thing for GOWK to be banned...


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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:19 am 
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jedispyder wrote:
mommasboy wrote:
This is the problem with banning any piece-once one gets banned, everyone begins to point to the next one that "should" be banned! I couldn't be more against banning ANY figure including GOWK. Bunch of whiners....

I kinda have to agree. I'm against the ban because then people will be begging for someone else to be banned. You can make it a house rule to "ban" him, but I don't think it should be a set thing for GOWK to be banned...


I have been against the Ban the whole time. I have no problem playing with the figures that are available.

But the main arguement that gets thrown at me when I say there is still enough stuff to counter GOWK that he doesn't need to be banned, is that its shrinks the meta too much that it is isn't fun. Which is a reasonable point. It doesn't make someone a whiner when they are expressing opinions on what the makes the game more open at a high end of competitive play.

stang, I don't even care about Boba, BH. In a 200 point torunament game mara took a Big D, before any other damage was dealt. I took it and kept playing. I killed boba for exposing himself enough to get the shot. I then had verride split up my squad and almost cause me to lose again. Didn't bitch, just kept playing and barely pulled out a win. I didn't play a BG, and I didn't play override. I let my uggies get killed. Trust me, whining about SWM is not something I care for. I play the game and I enjoy it. The last commentsmay or may not have been directed at me, but after facing the cold reality that GOWK will very likely be the first ban for SWM, i just felt like sharing an opinion.

I imagine many players after seeing/hearing of a Ban happening for the first time will cause a bunch of cries. Its bound to happen.

Despite playing tempo control and winning many games largely due to tempo control, I am just willing to admit it may be worse for the game than GOWK.

The only things I really think can even be considered is Boba BH, tempo control pices, GOWK and I understand the request to Ban R2 before Gambit, Lobot, t3 and uggies existed.

The funniest thing about Boba BH is that is to some extent needed because alot of factions don't have a decent mobile accurate shooters but most of the pieces that provide the most synergy with Boba BH have been in factions with great mobile accurate shooters. Han Rebel Hero and Bothan Nobles being the best examples.

Meh, off subject by now. I guess deep down I just don;t want to be clumped with all the people who complain needlessly. I feel like the game has enough in it, that I still love the game without any Bans. But when 4 factions are largly seen as non-competitive and large amount of that could be a fixed with a single Ban, it may be for the best.

eh, wierd night...I should stop rambling.


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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:01 am 
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mommasboy wrote:
This is the problem with banning any piece-once one gets banned, everyone begins to point to the next one that "should" be banned! I couldn't be more against banning ANY figure including GOWK. Bunch of whiners....


I agree 1000% I said the same thing in the poll to ban GOWK. I pointed out that if we ban GOWK then people would want to ban Boba, BH and Mara Jade, Jedi too. I do not want to deal with that. I love Boba, BH and not cause he's broken, but simply because Boba Fett has been my favorite character in Star Wars since I was 6 and that was 13 year's ago. I use Boba, BH because he is my favorite character not in the game, but in Star Wars. I don't even use him a lot either, just sometimes. I just want to say if banning is going to happen then I might fall out of the game if it happens too much.

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Last edited by boba90 on Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:48 am 
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Just because GOWK gets banned, does not mean the other pieces will be. How long have people been calling for a ban on Boba BH? Long before GOWK even existed. Just because a lot of people complain doesn't mean that the piece will be put onto the banned list. Hard evidence will be needed to prove that the presence of that piece is bad for the game. For GOWK, that evidence has been gathered by a lot of playtesting by the best players this game has. Unless another piece proves beyond a doubt that it's on the same level as GOWK, it won't be banned.

Take a look at the other pieces that you are concerned might get banned, everyone, and really ask yourself: are they anywhere near as bad as GOWK? If the answer's no, and for 90% of the pieces, you needn't worry.

The argument for tempo control is a bit of a weak one. It's not just that keeping the Mandos/OR/Sith from competitive play. Mandos can't really compete with the likes of Wedge, Rieekan, Thrawn, and Yobuck, and tempo control does nothing to change that.


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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:12 am 
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Yeah people can say
"Oh this piece is broken, BAN HIM NOW."
But GOWK is actually 'broken'. Dodonna isn't overpowered and invincible. His CE is EXTREMELY helpful to Rebel and NR. But you don't see people going
"Oh, well now that I have Dodonna, time to sell off most of my collection since he is all I need for a good team."
GOWK has made that impact.
Why should YOU waste your money on boosters, cases and various singles when you have GOWK and some filler? He makes the bad pieces good, the good pieces better, and the great pieces nearly unkillable. 28 Defense Boba BH with +16-22 attack?...Rex who is an amazing-but fragile- pieces now loses his fragilitiy and becomes one of the top 2-3 shooters in the game. Any pieces you call "broken" compare their effects to GOWK's...You will be pleasently suprised to find out that they fall short and are fine in the long run.

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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:15 am 
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Assuming a ban, the metagame will be limited to 5-6 core concepts with some inventive variety in the details, exactly like it is now except with different concepts.

I actually kind of enjoyed the GOWK-centered metagame at the regionals. I had fun. All the direct damage and Force powers is an interesting change of pace.

There is the annoyance that it's rare (even at the speed I play) to complete a game against GOWK. I had one GOWK mirror match go over 15 rounds and outside of the dueling Pushes that severely damaged both GOWKs, exactly 1 attack landed for a grand total of 10 damage. (yup. It was Jarael. Neither GOWK ever landed damage, nor did a JWM, Kybuck or Dash on opposing GOWKs.)

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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:59 am 
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I am against the ban for 2 reasons:

1. I don't like bans in general.

2. I don't think that GOWK is "invincible" as some people put it.

Also it is silly to put an erratum on a mini that causes it to be banned. Where is the sense in that? :roll:

GOWK is extremely powerful, but so have been plenty of other minis, too. Thrawn never was banned though people complained about him back in the days. Luke's Snowspeeder never became banned though he won several of the major events (1 Gen Con and 2 german nationals). Neither have been Dodonna or Rieekan. Those will be the new hate pieces once GOWK is banned, because GOWK alone completely oppresses the feared Rebel Evade shooters.

Errata are okay as long as they don't become too excessive. Bans cross a line that you shouldn't cross. Just like the Dark Side bans are a "place of no return".

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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:25 am 
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I kill Gungans wrote:
I am against the ban for 2 reasons:

1. I don't like bans in general.

2. I don't think that GOWK is "invincible" as some people put it.

Also it is silly to put an erratum on a mini that causes it to be banned. Where is the sense in that? :roll:

GOWK is extremely powerful, but so have been plenty of other minis, too. Thrawn never was banned though people complained about him back in the days. Luke's Snowspeeder never became banned though he won several of the major events (1 Gen Con and 2 german nationals). Neither have been Dodonna or Rieekan. Those will be the new hate pieces once GOWK is banned, because GOWK alone completely oppresses the feared Rebel Evade shooters.

Errata are okay as long as they don't become too excessive. Bans cross a line that you shouldn't cross. Just like the Dark Side bans are a "place of no return".


Nobody is saying GOWK is invincible. We've seen that he hasn't won many (if any) regionals. However, his record at regionals speaks for itself. He turns crappy pieces into dominant pieces, and JA isn't going to help this out; the Republic are growing at the same pace, if not more so, than the other "closest" factions (not too close, though).

Thrawn, LSS, Dodonna and Rieekan are completely different; none of them make characters better by leaps and bounds. Thrawn by himself wasn't anywhere near as bad as GOWK; he had Vader and that was it (when he came out). LSS is really fragile, unlike GOWK, and does not make any other characters in his squad way more powerful. Dodonna and other tempo control is not bad to deal with, either. The Rebels and NR don't have double/twin/oppurtunist 17 pt droid characters like the Seps can have. Rebels and NR have one consistently reliable, IMO, Oppurtunist shooter: Dash. Rieekan was brought up before he was released, but is not on the level of GOWK; Evade isn't too hard to deal with since the increase in melee presence in games, and not to mention reliable Disruptive pieces.

GOWK can make bad pieces average+, mediocre pieces competetive, and competetive pieces amazing. And with GOWK, they don't even need to be subject to his CE to be made better; Rex is a BEAST now, b/c the support gets buffed up and its now even harder to get to Rex than it was before. None of your examples can impact the game single-handedly like GOWK can; GOWKs not scared to get into the fray and f*** s*** up. He can avoid almost any damage thrown his way. Who else can? So, don't compare ANYBODY else to GOWK, b/c there is no other character in the game LIKE GOWK.


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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:29 am 
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So, let's try and not make this a why we should or should not ban GOWK thread. We have plenty of other threads were this opinion can be voiced. The discussion here should concentrate on the idea that he is already banned.

I guess I am still looking at this from a Magic The Gathering standpoint when it comes to bans. What you see there is if the same squads (decks) containing the same core cards or combos for that card and the counters to that squad (deck) dominate the top 8 for a period of time in the pro tour then a ban is considered. Regardless of if he can be defeated or not, Boba BH is in alot of top squads, so my question is post GOWK will we see more of him and does he still have the power to create an example like the one I showed above for Magic?

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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:38 am 
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Boba BH will probably be seen a lot more, but so will other squads. It will probably go back to Double/Twin/GMA meta. However, JA may give us a more diverse meta at the top tournaments. Almost every faction will have an at least competetive build, and that is great for the game; diversity.

Boba BH cannons will rise up, but there will be a diverse amount of squads out there, so his affect may be different after the ban. IMO, the Boba BH cannon squads were effective b/c they new what they were going to see (for the most part) at regionals; GOWK. The multi-shot disintegration tactic was meant to keep shooting until a 20 pops up against GOWK, then GOWKs squad is left w/o the +4/+4, meaning it is easier to kill his support (which will probably be Uniques, so BH +6 kicks in). I'm not saying this is what happened, but this is what I've seen looking at regional write-ups. If its different, LMK, as I love the write-ups and enjoyed to read them, and want to know what's going on :)


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 Post subject: Re: The world after GOWK gets banned...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:17 pm 
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A look into the future: Star Wars Miniatures: 2012.....

...The future is bleak. Gowk got banned as we all thought he should, only to the horrification of a Charging Assault, Twin, GMA, Cloaked, Triple Attacking Maul in JA. We couldn't' ban him quick enough and Parasimar Dorgon, a 4 year old from Alaska won Gencon - his first time ever playing SWM. It was horrifying.

Ban outcries ran rampant. We removed the entire Galaxy at War Set. Boba BH was banned. The Ugnaught and Mouse Droid were too low for points and crutches for every player. They were banned. In an effort to simplify things, we actually decided to ban everything from 2011 from competitive play.

Throne Room, all the Map Packs, Banned.
Mara Jade, Jedi - Banned
Twin Attack. Banned.
Override. Banned.

Feeling the faction had become too powerful, we banned the New Republic faction and Mandalorians alltogether. I mean holy both are crazy, sick.

Amazingly, through all of this, Jar Jar Binks was not banned.

Then to start 2012, we banned everything. And a Mass Exodus of the game ensued.

The smoke cleared sometime in late 2012 when a new set came out of the ashes of the game - a set called "Rebel Storm".

Finally, things were "back to normal". Melee Attack reigned supreme and we were all overjoyed (after banning Han Solo, R2-D2 and Boba Fett).

The Winning squad of:

Chewbacca
Luke Skywalker, Rebel
Lando Calrissian
4 x Bespin Guard
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Rebel Trooper x 3
Elite Rebel Trooper x 2
C-3P0

Was followed by cheers and celebrations. A new dawn of Star Wars miniatures is coming. I hear the new Clone Strike set coming out next year is supposed to be the bomb! I can only hope!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:17 pm 
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Fool wrote:
A look into the future: Star Wars Miniatures: 2012.....

...The future is bleak. Gowk got banned as we all thought he should, only to the horrification of a Charging Assault, Twin, GMA, Cloaked, Triple Attacking Maul in JA. We couldn't' ban him quick enough and Parasimar Dorgon, a 4 year old from Alaska won Gencon - his first time ever playing SWM. It was horrifying.

Ban outcries ran rampant. We removed the entire Galaxy at War Set. Boba BH was banned. The Ugnaught and Mouse Droid were too low for points and crutches for every player. They were banned. In an effort to simplify things, we actually decided to ban everything from 2011 from competitive play.

Throne Room, all the Map Packs, Banned.
Mara Jade, Jedi - Banned
Twin Attack. Banned.
Override. Banned.

Feeling the faction had become too powerful, we banned the New Republic faction and Mandalorians alltogether. I mean holy both are crazy, sick.

Amazingly, through all of this, Jar Jar Binks was not banned.

Then to start 2012, we banned everything. And a Mass Exodus of the game ensued.

The smoke cleared sometime in late 2012 when a new set came out of the ashes of the game - a set called "Rebel Storm".

Finally, things were "back to normal". Melee Attack reigned supreme and we were all overjoyed (after banning Han Solo, R2-D2 and Boba Fett).

The Winning squad of:

Chewbacca
Luke Skywalker, Rebel
Lando Calrissian
4 x Bespin Guard
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Rebel Trooper x 3
Elite Rebel Trooper x 2
C-3P0

Was followed by cheers and celebrations. A new dawn of Star Wars miniatures is coming. I hear the new Clone Strike set coming out next year is supposed to be the bomb! I can only hope!!!


yeah that is it because if one figure gets banned we suddenly have to go down a slippery slope.

What I cannot fathom is why such doom and gloom. Just because a figure is banne doesnt mean it stays banned. Things shift in the game new abilities comes around and figures like maps can suddenly become legal again. I guess I missed the slippery slope when the Mustafar map was banned.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 4:25 pm 
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Fool wrote:
A look into the future: Star Wars Miniatures: 2012.....

...The future is bleak. Gowk got banned as we all thought he should, only to the horrification of a Charging Assault, Twin, GMA, Cloaked, Triple Attacking Maul in JA. We couldn't' ban him quick enough and Parasimar Dorgon, a 4 year old from Alaska won Gencon - his first time ever playing SWM. It was horrifying.

Ban outcries ran rampant. We removed the entire Galaxy at War Set. Boba BH was banned. The Ugnaught and Mouse Droid were too low for points and crutches for every player. They were banned. In an effort to simplify things, we actually decided to ban everything from 2011 from competitive play.

Throne Room, all the Map Packs, Banned.
Mara Jade, Jedi - Banned
Twin Attack. Banned.
Override. Banned.

Feeling the faction had become too powerful, we banned the New Republic faction and Mandalorians alltogether. I mean holy both are crazy, sick.

Amazingly, through all of this, Jar Jar Binks was not banned.

Then to start 2012, we banned everything. And a Mass Exodus of the game ensued.

The smoke cleared sometime in late 2012 when a new set came out of the ashes of the game - a set called "Rebel Storm".

Finally, things were "back to normal". Melee Attack reigned supreme and we were all overjoyed (after banning Han Solo, R2-D2 and Boba Fett).

The Winning squad of:

Chewbacca
Luke Skywalker, Rebel
Lando Calrissian
4 x Bespin Guard
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Rebel Trooper x 3
Elite Rebel Trooper x 2
C-3P0

Was followed by cheers and celebrations. A new dawn of Star Wars miniatures is coming. I hear the new Clone Strike set coming out next year is supposed to be the bomb! I can only hope!!!


...says the guy who by his own admission doesn't play DCI and rarely if ever fields or faces off against GOWK. Is this really the type of post a "Forum Guide" and ambassador for WotC should be making?

I mean, it's one thing to disagree but this is over the top.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:10 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Fool wrote:
A look into the future: Star Wars Miniatures: 2012.....

...The future is bleak. Gowk got banned as we all thought he should, only to the horrification of a Charging Assault, Twin, GMA, Cloaked, Triple Attacking Maul in JA. We couldn't' ban him quick enough and Parasimar Dorgon, a 4 year old from Alaska won Gencon - his first time ever playing SWM. It was horrifying.

Ban outcries ran rampant. We removed the entire Galaxy at War Set. Boba BH was banned. The Ugnaught and Mouse Droid were too low for points and crutches for every player. They were banned. In an effort to simplify things, we actually decided to ban everything from 2011 from competitive play.

Throne Room, all the Map Packs, Banned.
Mara Jade, Jedi - Banned
Twin Attack. Banned.
Override. Banned.

Feeling the faction had become too powerful, we banned the New Republic faction and Mandalorians alltogether. I mean holy both are crazy, sick.

Amazingly, through all of this, Jar Jar Binks was not banned.

Then to start 2012, we banned everything. And a Mass Exodus of the game ensued.

The smoke cleared sometime in late 2012 when a new set came out of the ashes of the game - a set called "Rebel Storm".

Finally, things were "back to normal". Melee Attack reigned supreme and we were all overjoyed (after banning Han Solo, R2-D2 and Boba Fett).

The Winning squad of:

Chewbacca
Luke Skywalker, Rebel
Lando Calrissian
4 x Bespin Guard
Obi-Wan Kenobi
Rebel Trooper x 3
Elite Rebel Trooper x 2
C-3P0

Was followed by cheers and celebrations. A new dawn of Star Wars miniatures is coming. I hear the new Clone Strike set coming out next year is supposed to be the bomb! I can only hope!!!


...says the guy who by his own admission doesn't play DCI and rarely if ever fields or faces off against GOWK. Is this really the type of post a "Forum Guide" and ambassador for WotC should be making?

I mean, it's one thing to disagree but this is over the top.

I thought thought it was hysterical. In a ridiculous "over the top" joke sort of way.

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