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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:43 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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Well said Omnus. Glad to have you guys aboard!

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:35 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Awww Omnus, you're getting all mushy on us! :D

And yes, I enjoy talking about minis far more then playing it; it significantly lowers the burnout factor (see: poor Nightwalker).

Rest of it is...tl;dr. :-p (He's going to smack me if I make it after work to the tournament tonight...) Also, it was an absolute blast talking to some of you guys on Skype last night; we need to do that more often. Dean, the PM has been sent.

Back to WI: So is GOWK's only nemesis himself?


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:17 am 
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Cybit wrote:
Awww Omnus, you're getting all mushy on us! :D

And yes, I enjoy talking about minis far more then playing it; it significantly lowers the burnout factor (see: poor Nightwalker).

Rest of it is...tl;dr. :-p (He's going to smack me if I make it after work to the tournament tonight...) Also, it was an absolute blast talking to some of you guys on Skype last night; we need to do that more often. Dean, the PM has been sent.

Back to WI: So is GOWK's only nemesis himself?


No Dooku of Sereno is a good piece ageist GOWK the problem is that his GOWKSs buddys will shoot him to ribbons

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:41 am 
Master of the Order
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Cybit wrote:
So, I think part of the reason the wagons were, um, rallied, is that, whether it was intended to be that way or not, many of the posts throughout the GOWK debate were "well, you didn't place at Gencon, so your opinion doesn't matter".


Wait, what? No one ever said that, and even if someone did, it was not a statement that rose to the level of widely-held belief. I didn't place at GenCon, does that mean my opinion didn't matter? (Well, technically I placed, but it was something like 87th. :P)

What was said is that the "I don't play DCI and have rarely if ever used or fought against GOWK but I don't think it should be banned" is a statement of ignorance. It'd be like me saying "I have never driven a semi and don't know anything about them but I think the semi engine should be placed behind the cab."

I'm all for hearing educated opinions, pro or con, on the subject. But uninformed opinions are meaningless, and that has nothing to do with whether someone is a top player at GenCon or PAX or anywhere else. It's strictly about playing the game - even at the kitchen table - within the confines of the sanctioned play rules. I would consider the statement, "I don't play DCI but I hate GOWK so ban it" to be as equally uninformed. I'm interested strictly in evidence, pro or con. And I think most people here are, too.

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Now, as you pointed out, GenCon isn't feasible for many of us (being originally from the Midwest/having spent 22 years of my life there, GenCon is the Big Thing out there, but moving out here, wow, we're small freaking fish dude), and as a dorkfest on the whole, PAX/ComicCon tends to crush it. :D


Overall PAX is probably bigger but it's also not a gaming convention like GenCon. Apples and oranges.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:24 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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@Boris

Looking back at it, I think that's what was intended to be said, and said for the most part, but with the power of the internet, it's easy to misinterpret things.

I agree that those who play DCI should be the ones talking about/deciding whether GOWK is banned in DCI. :)

Though, depending on how a ruling about Mettle goes, I might be reconsidering how I feel about GOWK. Last night I was told that Mettle lasts until the end of the turn, IE, if Rex shoots at GOWK 4x, lets say I make the first soresu, fail the second, re-roll it, make it. If I fail the third Soresu save, and reroll it, I get a +8 to the re-roll, not just a +4. IE, Mettle bonuses last the entire round. That's slightly more insane.

Eh, I consider PAX a gaming convention (along with E3); but I think they all fall under the title "dorkfest". :D I have no doubt that you could (eventually, hopefully?) do another championship at PAX (both east and west coast). If, you know, we get more then 30 days notice. >_<. It's also more palatable for WOTC, seeing as they are only a couple of miles away.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:15 pm 
Master of the Order
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Cybit wrote:
Eh, I consider PAX a gaming convention (along with E3); but I think they all fall under the title "dorkfest". :D I have no doubt that you could (eventually, hopefully?) do another championship at PAX (both east and west coast). If, you know, we get more then 30 days notice. >_<. It's also more palatable for WOTC, seeing as they are only a couple of miles away.


Well...PAX is a gaming convention, but it encompasses ALL games, including video games and stuff like that too. GenCon typically has a very small amount of video game stuff, like maybe Blizzard and SOE and maybe a couple other companies show up with display booths, but that's about it. 95% of GenCon is all about table-top gaming, and mostly Miniatures or Collectible Card games. I haven't been to PAX, but I follow the news and such about it, and it seems like it's sort of the opposite of GenCon from that perspective. Probably more like 80% video game related, and maybe only 20% table-top games. Then again, could just be because the media doesn't report on the table-top gaming stuff as much as the video games.

If they just had PAX even 2 months before or after GenCon (don't care which convention switched dates, just that they had 2 months between them), it would make a world of difference for people to be able to travel to both. 2 weeks between them is seriously too tough for the majority of us. It really is a shame too. Would be awesome to have a major tournament with 50+ turn out on both the West Coast and East Coast.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:11 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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LoboStele wrote:
Cybit wrote:
Eh, I consider PAX a gaming convention (along with E3); but I think they all fall under the title "dorkfest". :D I have no doubt that you could (eventually, hopefully?) do another championship at PAX (both east and west coast). If, you know, we get more then 30 days notice. >_<. It's also more palatable for WOTC, seeing as they are only a couple of miles away.


Well...PAX is a gaming convention, but it encompasses ALL games, including video games and stuff like that too. GenCon typically has a very small amount of video game stuff, like maybe Blizzard and SOE and maybe a couple other companies show up with display booths, but that's about it. 95% of GenCon is all about table-top gaming, and mostly Miniatures or Collectible Card games. I haven't been to PAX, but I follow the news and such about it, and it seems like it's sort of the opposite of GenCon from that perspective. Probably more like 80% video game related, and maybe only 20% table-top games. Then again, could just be because the media doesn't report on the table-top gaming stuff as much as the video games.

If they just had PAX even 2 months before or after GenCon (don't care which convention switched dates, just that they had 2 months between them), it would make a world of difference for people to be able to travel to both. 2 weeks between them is seriously too tough for the majority of us. It really is a shame too. Would be awesome to have a major tournament with 50+ turn out on both the West Coast and East Coast.


You guys would actually be surprised how often we joke about PAX 2008. This year we may actually have a good turnout. But some space between the 2 events would be really nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:14 pm 
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Heh, I understand. :) It doesn't bother me as much because I live in Seattle, so PAX isn't traveling. :D

PAX is more video game/geek culture centric then GenCon, definitely. It's large table-top portion is due to WotC being so close for the most part.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...do you think GOWK will actually survive long enough to win any of the regionals with 16+ people?


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:33 pm 
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well if there are only 2-3 and they have to play each other early or the winner doesnt have to play GOWK then no. if there are 5-6 with 20 players i dont see how GOWK cant win even if there are crazy matches.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:36 pm 
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Cybit wrote:
Anyway, back to the topic at hand...do you think GOWK will actually survive long enough to win any of the regionals with 16+ people?


Honestly, I think that all comes down to how many people actually PLAY GOWK.

3 people in TX out of what...14 total? Something like that (don't feel like looking right now, lol). So almost 20%

In WI it was only 3 out of 26 and only 2 out of 20 in Atlanta, so roughly 10% in each of those. I think that's the problem there. Without a high enough amount of saturation, it's too easy for one lousy match-up (or play mistake in these situations), or the screwy swiss pairings, to hose everything up.

I mean, with the WI guys, it seriously could've gone like this

Round 1 GOWK A vs GOWK B and then GOWK C vs. random other squad. A and C win, B loses
Round 2, GOWK A vs GOWK C and then GOWK B vs. random other squad. C and B win, A loses
Round 3, GOWK B vs GOWK C (both at 1-1 now), and GOWK A vs. random other squad. A and B win, C loses

Seriously, if the matchups ran like that, which is perfectly plausible depending on the rest of the swiss field, and you only have 3 GOWK squads out of 25 people, it be quite easy for them all to knock each other out.

At GenCon 2007, one of the Cincinati guys had to play 3 other people from Cincinnati in the first 5 rounds of the tournament. Now, the example isn't completely relevant, but if all of us from Cincy had a goal to see as many of us as possible in the top 8, but 4 people have to play other members from their own store...well, you can imagine what happens. Unless the player/squad matchup is just solidly in favor for the same person in every one of those matchups, they likely end up all knocking each other out of contention, which is exactly what happend, lol. Analogy sort of works with GOWK too.

So, if enough people aren't playing him, it's perfectly plausible that other squads will win at the top. We'll see how it goes in Cincy. I expect to see at least a few GOWK builds, but it'll be hard to know for sure what will come out on top.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:06 pm 
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The issue with PAX isn't PAX, it's the location. If you don't live on the west coast, there is no easy way to get there. It ABSOLUTELY includes the purchase of a plane ticket, so if you don't want to fly or can't afford to, you're already out of contention for attendance. Then there is the issue of lodging, which I'm told is a lot priceier than other parts of the country, but since I've never been there and probably never will, I don't know that for sure.

And yeah, I know PAX does gaming. When I said it's not a gaming convention like GenCon, I meant that its focus is more on video games as opposed to table top (which at one time is why I thought WotC moved SWM there last year, and had expected all the events for WotC to be held there as well, based on some of the thing the company was saying [ie the transition to Gleemax and the desire to appeal to the video gamer]).

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:11 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
The issue with PAX isn't PAX, it's the location. If you don't live on the west coast, there is no easy way to get there. It ABSOLUTELY includes the purchase of a plane ticket, so if you don't want to fly or can't afford to, you're already out of contention for attendance. Then there is the issue of lodging, which I'm told is a lot priceier than other parts of the country, but since I've never been there and probably never will, I don't know that for sure.

And yeah, I know PAX does gaming. When I said it's not a gaming convention like GenCon, I meant that its focus is more on video games as opposed to table top (which at one time is why I thought WotC moved SWM there last year, and had expected all the events for WotC to be held there as well, based on some of the thing the company was saying [ie the transition to Gleemax and the desire to appeal to the video gamer]).


I thought they moved SWM there because its just insanely cheaper for WotC to get things moved to PAX over having to fly everything over to GenCon. I suspect they will eventually try moving much of their GenCon presence over to PAX to cut costs.

It is pretty expensive to stay in Seattle. If you're into video games/geek culture (like me), it's a blast, if you're into primarily table-top gaming, it isn't probably worth it unless you live within a day's drive.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Cybit wrote:
I thought they moved SWM there because its just insanely cheaper for WotC to get things moved to PAX over having to fly everything over to GenCon. I suspect they will eventually try moving much of their GenCon presence over to PAX to cut costs.


This was the rumor for a while, but then remember that every other game they produce was represented at GenCon. We may never know the real reason SWM was the only game moved away - without warning - from the largest tabletop gaming convention in the United States.

I do feel okay saying that I believe they have recognized that was a mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:40 pm 
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Based on discussions with various WOTC managers in the year and a half I've been out here, it may have more to do with the entire "fiefdom" concept that pervades WOTC. If SWM is anything like Magic, D&D, Pokemon, etc...each product kinda has its own budget and essentially its own little fiefdom. If SWM was hurting for money, rather then using money from another product to keep it alive during a down period, they may have just started to cut budget within SWM; one of those measures potentially being to move the tourney to PAX.

In a perfect world, the regionals thing will grow, or even become more frequent. I'd love to help try to grow the Regionals concept into almost a season based deal; quarterly tournaments, culminating in a showdown of all the winners perhaps...going on VASSAL if we can't get everyone in the same area. <goes off on his pipe dream>


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Cybit wrote:
In a perfect world, the regionals thing will grow, or even become more frequent. I'd love to help try to grow the Regionals concept into almost a season based deal; quarterly tournaments, culminating in a showdown of all the winners perhaps...going on VASSAL if we can't get everyone in the same area. <goes off on his pipe dream>


Haha. Actually, the idea of holding a 'regional' on Vassal is one that we proposed quite a while back. Give all the people who live too far away to travel to a Regional (like the internationals, for one), or just those who couldn't attend their own Regionals, a chance to still compete for a free GenCon badge.

Maybe next year....

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:04 pm 
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A vassal regional isnt too hard to do 10 dollars. 5 goes to prizes 5 goes to the winner thats if there is 20 players. start it early, everyone has to have vassal/skype.

saying that would you guys be up for a 5 dollar tournament in middle july.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:10 pm 
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I'm game, but let's talk about it in another thread shall we :)

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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:11 pm 
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@Boris
It costs me a plane ticket to fly to Gencon, just like it would cost you a plane ticket to fly to PAX. I realize there is a bigger community in that part of the country. But what came first: SWM at Gencon, or most of the dedicated SWM community living within a day's drive of Gencon? And regardless of the answer, how much have the two factors influenced each other?

I think if WotC keeps holding major tournaments in other areas, it will encourage the player base to grow in other areas. Seattle-area SWM exploded right after PAX. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but maybe not.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:14 pm 
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shinja wrote:
@Boris
It costs me a plane ticket to fly to Gencon, just like it would cost you a plane ticket to fly to PAX. I realize there is a bigger community in that part of the country. But what came first: SWM at Gencon, or most of the dedicated SWM community living within a day's drive of Gencon? And regardless of the answer, how much have the two factors influenced each other?

I think if WotC keeps holding major tournaments in other areas, it will encourage the player base to grow in other areas. Seattle-area SWM exploded right after PAX. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but maybe not.


Quoted for truth.

Plus several game companies and games (including HeroClix) went down since or around PAX, I'm a converted Clix player as is Rob and I am sure there are more out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Wisconsin State Championship - Racine, WI Tourney Report!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:56 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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We also had a lot come from D&D minis. Darrell was a huge mini advocate and coverted to SWM when D&D minis died. Graff came from D&D minis aswell.

I got back into the game right after pax because I randomly ran into Darrell and we got to talking about the kotor set. Then I convinced him we should start doing it every week. Vik also just happen to pic up minis again a few weeks before I did. We kind of kept each other sane by giving each other a challenge while all the new players got a feel for things. We stole Nightwalker from wow ccg...same with Cybit.

Now we just have players showing up from everywhere because all the other stores treated the swm players poorly.

Not sure how the mcdougal brothers got into it. Steven and his Dad just randomly bought some stuff and started playing at the right time. Jack and Sarah were always playing? Met them at Genesis way back.

Alot of factors all just sort of happened at the same time and with Bloomilk as an incredible tool...it just worked and its been growing since...not sure if PAX had any effect.


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