Yeah, we've spent tons of games coming to the same conclusion. Even with all the Jolt I still think it is an uphill battle. An experienced player realizes the hit point weakness of the squad and won't hesitate to be a little aggressive, knowing that killing even one Vigo can be the death of the squad.

Congrats on your win. Nice to see that you're coming around on the GOWK hilarity. Imagine Bill, Lobo, Engineer and all the other awesome players running him at Gen Con.

I had a great time and I was really suprised by the relative lack of GOWK squads and complete lack of Bobas of any kind. I decided to go for T3 in the squad because of his flamethrower, and in the two games where he didn't get taken out right away, the auto damage was useful. Juno's disruptive was also extremely helpful against the commander heavy squads I faced like Rebel superstealth and evade.

My first game was against Jonny and I didn't lose to GOWK as much as I lost to the double override he had. I had made a costly mistake in setting up and my first rounds of movements left T3 in a position to get smoked by Rex. My two ugs were next to go down and without them the override hurt immensely. The only points I got that game were two rounds of gambit and R2. Protecting door control is an important part of the game especially on maps like Bespin. Its a lesson I learned before but I guess I really need to be taught it several times before it sticks.

well GOWK had to play GOWK in the second and third round the odds of GOWK winning after round 3rd dropped. since it really came down to the last GOWK squad winning out. since the other 2 GOWK squad couldnt win. so GOWK going 2nd,3rd and 6th right there with there only being 3 GOWK squads says ban him. I dont care that he didnt win if we were able to do a playoff odds are GOWK might of won since GOWK only lost to one non-GOWK squad.

i was amazed that yodabuck didnt show up but there was a lancer played but i dont think nate had san which can make a big difference at setting up your shots.

My God, Jonny, could you have said GOWK any more in that one paragraph???

GOWK!

Cincinnati had a Pre-Regional Tournament with just 6 of us. 3 played GOWK, and I'm not how you'd clarify 2 of the other 3 as either Anti-GOWK for just fun. My squad was just for fun and it didn't do all that great. In the end the winner was one of the non-GOWK squads. All the GOWK squads lost at least 1 game...

I think its interesting that for at least this small sample, the GOWK squads have not been unbeatable. At least one loss each, while not huge, can be the difference between first and second, between badge and boosters. Sure some of the time they being beaten by a mirror match... From that, and random extrapolation in my head, I predict that only 5/8 of the top gencon squads will contain GWOK.

I am not quite sure but BIll may remember but actually from what I understand all but 2 of the Gowk losses have been mirror matches.

hopefully Gowk will not make the top 8 at gencon

Um, GOWK went 10-1 against non GOWK. We played 5 rounds of Swiss, which means any loss, even to another GOWK, takes you out of the running for first place. The timing of the matches was key as well. One of the three GOWK's was eliminated in round 2. The second, was eliminated in round 3.

In round 3 the top 5 players were the only 2-0, and of those 5, two were GOWK's, and they were playing each other.

In round 4, we had 1 unbeaten GOWK left, and three other unbeatens who had yet to play a game against GOWK.

So in round 4, GOWK had a 1/4 chance of winning. Matt screwed up, lost the game to Ben, eliminating GOWK from the tournament. It isn't a hard thing to understand. Swiss is like that. Its why any competitive player will tell you that to have a true test, you have to do single elimination at the end. And even then, bad luck in the single elim rounds can skew the results more, but playing to one unbeaten in Swiss has even more variability from time to time.

So from this. You can take away that no squad was able to beat GOWK, with the sole exception of Matt playing bad, and Ben playing perfectly.

I've predicted it multiple times now, but I will say it again. GOWK will take 1/2 of the top spots if played by decent players. It basically assures you of a top finish. In this case, it wasn't played greatly, but it still did exactly what I said it would.

It took 2/4, and 3/6. What more can I say about it? Force push was played by very similarly skilled players, and the two of those were 0/2 against GOWK. They placed 5th and 7th.

I guess you have to be intimately familiar with big tournaments to understand what these results are saying for Gencon. Maybe that's the problem.

But I will try again. Let's take the GOWK players from the 3 regionals so far, and place them into the Gencon scene. Let's see, Wedge, went 6-1 with it and won Texas. Matt, Jon and his buddy went 4-1 each and took 2,3,6 with it in Wisconsin. Lou was the only major GOWK player at Atlanta, went 3-1 and took 7th (lost in round 2 due to some bad mistakes like forgetting yoda of dag had force defense). Most of these players also claimed that other than their losses, their games have been not very close at all.

Now, add to that the upcoming Chicago regional where I will be playing GOWK, the Cincinnati and or Owensburo where Lobotstele will be playing GOWK, the Missouri where Dean will be playing GOWK, and the Michigan where Lou will be playing GOWK. Take all of those guys, stick them in the Champ (which other than Dean are all likely) and what are the odds of GOWK not winning the whole thing? That's where all this swiss stuff starts to fall apart. Sure, locally where only 3/26 players run GOWK, and you play 5 rounds of swiss, you can win the thing without facing GOWK if the pairings work out. What are you odds of avoiding it when 10/20 of the top players in the world are playing it, and its round 5, where all of them are 4-0 or 3-1 with it. Good luck. That's what we are looking at people.

Also, I really think people need to stop looking at GOWK's placings, and start looking at the match ups. Look at the games they are winning and losing, and why. These should be the most important factors in judging whether you are for a ban or not, not whether or not GOWK places 1st, 2nd, or 12th at a given regional. I know I have made mention of placement more than a few times, but I hope people are also reading the bulk of my interpretations, which focus on the much more important factors of the actual match ups.

We all know Swiss can be screwy, and small sample sizes, with a limited number of players using GOWK, and limits on the skill levels of the players can make things even worse.

But even still, look at the games. The people placing high in the regionals without GOWK, to date, have not beaten GOWK, and have often gotten the lucky side of swiss pairings to do so. And so far, those that have beaten GOWK seem to be doing so primarily because the GOWK player has made what I call "major" mistakes. Matt did it, I know now after talking to Lou about his lone loss in round 2 of Atlanta also did it, but I can promise you, come Gencon, those errors will start to disappear.

I hope he didn't lose because his opponent's Yoda of Dagobah used Force Push... because the figure doesn't have it

Also hope that Wizards knows how to interpret regionals results when it comes to making a banning decision. If this were Magic I'm sure they'd be analysing the results very carefully, but being that this is SWM they might be taking a quick look and saying "GOWK only won 1 out of 3 regionals so far, what's the problem?".

i bet lou forgot about force stun or force defense and bill just said the wrong thing i hope.

obviously I just said the wrong thing. Force Defense.

Congrats, Deri!!

I think the most interesting thing to note in this event is that ALL of the GOWK squads ended up in the top 6, or if it was to break down to a 3-round single elim, they were in the top 8. And based on their positioning in the top 8, if the pairings were similar to GenCon (1st plays 8th, 2nd plays 7th, etc), then none of those GOWK squads would have had to face each other in the first round of the playoffs. That would increase the possibilities of GOWK taking it all home by an IMMENSE amount.



To be fair, I ended up 2-1, but my game loss was to James. He asked me not to say anything about what squad he was running (he's a bit secretive that way), but anybody who knows James knows that it was a heavy shooter squad, and he played it ridiculously defensively. Oh, and we only played 5 rounds, and I would've likely won the game on the following round (which if we'd had 30 seconds extra, we would've started that 6th round), since his main piece only had 30 HP left, and was in range for a Push from GOWK. In addition, I should've counted up where we were on points, because I lost my Lobot late at the beginning of Round 5, which was ultimately unnecessary, and put him ahead in points. And, to top it all off, the game was on his map, Train Station, which is a real pain in the butt when he's got all power shooters and I had to advance my JWM/GOWK to do anything substantial.

Oh, and James and I played that same matchup on last Thursday as well, same map too, and in that game he only won because he pulled off a Disintegration on GOWK on my very last move of the game. So both games super close, and mostly won due to his map, IMO.

I'll try to post a full tourney report from Sunday when I get a chance.

I know he's "secretive" like that, which is why I didn't describe what types of squads we had

well if vigos cant handle GOWK I dont see a shooter squad that can really beat GOWK. Lobo i know your only playing 4-6 rounds with james which can end in a points game. even then I still think a GOWK squad can get the lead and keep it. GOWK can go down if you get him down to 1-2 force but its till really hard.Lobo I am not understanding how your losing if you dont want to take about it here can you pm me.

Eh, I'll post a tourney report and we can hash it out there, keep the discussions separate.

EDIT: Started a separate thread. Jonny, fire away with your questions. I'll gladly PM a couple of you guys the squad James ran if you want, since I know you won't be coming down to Cincy next weekend. Just trying to respect my friend's wishes (regardless of how unnecessary I may think it is).

I think you can conclude from this tourney is that GOWK has a number of the best squads that perform very well against the rest of the field. Johnnys rampaging 10HP GOWK almost winning the game speaks volumes how a streak of lucky rolls with GWOK can potentially win games against a team who is just attacking him.

You can also say that he is not infallable and that mistakes by the GOWK player can cost games as was seen in both Wis and Atlanta regionals. He does constrict the top game to probably the finest knife edge of squad we've seen. Particulally if you look at the number of figs we have these days compared to previous constricted metas (B&B days FI).

I will reitterate this point though, I am becoming more open to the idea of banning GOWK but will hold off until the rest fo the regionals to say for sure. Chicago, Kalamazoo and Cincinatti will speak volumes where Bill, Lou and Aaron will likely be playing GOWK. I am worried that with the absence of GOWK that some other squad will pop up and restrict the meta equally. We are focused on GOWK but something always rises to the top, it may just be that the power of pieces these days requires a piece like GOWK to define the meta.

I was lucky in this tourney not to face him but i faced some equally poor matchups for my squad and was happy to pull off some of my wins. Reinforcements were human BGD, 2 uggies and mouse droid every game.

Game 1
"terrible Twileks" v Reiken and Crix commandoes on Bespin.
This was a matchup i hated the look of first the guy had Crix, Reiken, Luke commando, 3x ERC, verteren Commando, Jawa scav, COmmando strike leader and fodder.
He won map and i set up left inside the building on the bottom corner. He set up top left. WE moved towards teh center at a similar pace i kept to the bottom rooms moving my pieces after he had gone. He moved luke and 3 commandoes into the control room. We both got gambit 2nd round and i moved my pieces into the corridor with Xizor leading hoping to cause a big pheremone driven road block. End of round I unlocked tot door and moved Xizor through. I won init and moved Xizor to take a swipe at an ERC xizor missed but was activated a meaning the ERCs needed 14s to hit. Luke came around the side to open the front door and the vet took a shot on a twilek for 40 which got evaded. Luke payed for getting to close and got smoked in one turn. Another erc took fire and locked the door between Xizor and the rest of the squad. Lobot unlocked the door and the 2nd twillek took out the Jawa and a ERC who failed his evades. next round Xizor took a couple of cunning shots from an ERC and took 30 dmg. Twilek #1 shot at the erc and took him down to 10 hp due to evades and misses. Xizor failed to kill the ERC. Squad moved into the control room and finished the 2 ERCs left. After that it was mop up. Stopped counting scores and the game finished up quickly after that.

game 2 TTs v Freds (Kyle, Wedge, Kyp, Dash, Dodonna, luke FS, uggies) on munnalinst GP.
I was petrified of Kyles disrutpive in this one, particulally with mettle evades. I defered placement and set up 2nd on the right (pillars side).
A cagey game with a lot of positioning. he moved into the top rooms and i moved up towards them but not in. End of round i moved a mouse into gambit getting a small lead. The next round he moved in to the 1st room with his whole crew and i moved south trying to get some cross fire. My mouse remained there putting my 10 points in the lead. Next round he moved kyp into gambit and i moved into the bottom rooms looking for shots around gambit while he moved further across the top rooms. He tookout my mouse droid (free) with Kyp and i retalliated putting 8 shots into him. 7 hit, 6 were evaded. He won init and moved Kyp away. More positioning and i put a free uggie back into gambit. He charged with Kyle chucking a grenade which killed the bdgd. I got an angle on Dash with a twilek and hit him 4 times. He evaded 2 but the 2 40 dmg hits he didn't evade killed him putting me at 48 - 10. Time was called mid way through this round and fred conceeded with most of my team left to go as there was no way to make the points.

game 3 on deathstar v Tim with Mara, Han GH, Kyle (Old), dodonna, ewok scout, uggies and a mouse.
I won map so he set up in the bottom right turbo lift. I started in the control room and hangar bay. He moved cautiously up through the detention block and i organized in teh control room using lobot to open the hanger bay door and fire a mouse into gambit. I roleld a 6 for init and brought in an Ra7 and a repulsor sled (i would have brought 3 RA7s but i must've missplaced them). He kileld the mouse and moved kyle onto cover (the droid in the deathstar center). I shot a uggi into gambit and advanced my RA7. he killed my uggie on the next turn and moved han and mara up to teh reactor beam shaft. I moved the RA7 so that mara and Kyle were in its a trap and killed Kyle with a volley from a twilek (couldn't get shots on Mara). Han killed my RA7 and moved south to the on the start of the next round and Mara killed my repulsor and moved to the behind the right most wall of the reactor beam shaft. I moved out to where i could get shots on Mara if i won init. I lost init and mara took 2 shots on a twilek, both hit, one was evaded. The twilek moved to within 6 and volleyed taking out mara. Han shot at the other twilek and scored a 30 dmg hit. Han got hit back taking 40 dmg. The next round was a reposition then i won init and volleyed into an unactivated han. He made his evade on teh first hit but failed hit jolt. he took 40 of the next 3 shots. The 2nd twilek finished him and he conceeded.

Game 4 V engineer playing rebel push (VAR, LukeHPU, Han smug, R2extenze, juno, uggies).
Deathstar - he won map i set up right in the command center and turbolifts and he was in teh control room.
The game started with him moveing slowly out of his room and i set up firing lanes from teh command center with the obligitory mouse into gambit. the first 4 rounds were positioning with me winning the lions share of init and moving uggies and mice in and out of gambit due to going first and going last. Eric moved very cautiously keeping out of LOS and moving Han + HP across the bottom and VAR across the top. The dance began when VAR got a push on one twilek and then got hit for 80 in retern. I won init, Jolted him and got another hit through leaving him at 10 hp but missed the last 2 shots needing 5s. The HBG moved up infront of the TBSV preventing lukes push and BGDing the twilek. Juno missed on the czerka and Han missed on lobot (also needing a 5).
Time was called before the next init but i had the game by 30 points to 23. (We rolled off for init just for fun i rolled a 7, eric rolled 3,4 with recon)

Game 5 v Ben (Malak DLOTS, Dash, Jareal, lobot, sideous Holo, mice, uggies) on Throne room starship
I started left in the corridor, he started right in the top corridor. He moved forward with Jareal in gambit 1st round and i moved most of my force sans lobot, mas and Ozzel into the detention block. The mouse took gambit. He jockeyed a bit more movign Malak behind the wall in teh center room and i moved to the turbolifts with Xizor up front. The door opened and Ben took out 2 uggies set to blow the door. At teh end of the round lobot opened the door and the twileks unloaded. Malak too k six attacks needing 7s, 3 hit and the last few were misses saving the dark lord, Xizor and a twin attacking Tarking with Ozzel combinting could not finish him. Next round Malak won int and came out and Zapped a twilek and the BGD and Jareal finished them both, the 2nd twilek took out Jareal and Malak but took a 10 hp AoO which meant he got finshed by Bens Twielek. That left Dash lobot and Sid v Xizor, tarkin, lobot ozzel and Czerka.
Xizor remained unactivated while Tarkin and ozzel fired at the twilek. The twilek eventually went down with Xizor taking minimal dmg. Xizor went for his lobot putting 10 into him and basing him. Czerka and Tarkin hid in a room and Dash went for Ozzel. Needing 10s for the kill and win he rolled a 6, 11, 20 (oooohhhhh) and........7. Ozzel moved into the room lobot locked it. Ben tried to move lobot away from Xizor and lobot died (there was no real need to move him, all it did was flesh out my score).

Final score was something like 128 - 83.


So i got a fair share of luck but you tend to need them to win these things.

seens like most of your games went to time. well now i understand more how you won your games with 40 hp shooters.

i told you in the car what the squads game plan is.

its classic San Hill Strat. Free gambit collectors and immence firepower to control it. it makes for very slow tactical games which are all about positioning. You have to play like that with 40 hp shooters and the opponent has to play carefully for the threat of 160 dmg coming back at you.

The only team i wasn't ahead on gambit 1st was against Ben.