Minor comments from a Madison competitor:
Fred B (#15) is JediBuch
Pat C (#11) is MandelMauler

Fred and I are proud parents of our teenage sons Gordon B (#10) and Phil C (#6 GOWK) who are both 17 years old (kids rule, parents drool). I know that Phil is good, but GOWK is the REAL reason that he placed 6th in this regional.

The hosts were great and the prize support was SPECTACULAR. Oh, and the other competitors were also top-notch.

It was also nice to now be able to put faces to the forum names.

Pat

Ah ok, thanks for the names!!! you never know who you might meet at a given event!

At any rate, you guys are first class acts, and your sons were equally gracious and good competitors. I know as a father myself, that I would be very proud of not only my son's performances, but also of their attitude, and character. They were definately a credit to their age bracket, this coming from someone who works with high schoolers

I know everyone involved with putting it together (Jonny, Zaim and I) were very happy with the tournout, the competitiveness, the attitudes of the players, and the experience as a whole. I hope this leads to and even bigger and better Championship in 2010!!

Oh and my friend Lou brought up a funny point. Our state championship had almost double the participants of last year's official championship at PAX Way to go Wisconsin!!!!

Also, I will be looking for an excuse to come up to Madison sometime later this summer. I am hoping Jonny, Matt and I can make a trip up there to play with you guys at your home court!

A very terse description (hey, he gave me 10 minutes) of teen's GOWK exploits at the tourney.

Game 1 against #22 Mandos on Rancor
fast game against an inexperienced player
1-0

Game 2 against #2 GOWK on Rancor
~ 40 minutes, Jon had better tactics and aggrevating double door control
1-1

Game 3 against #18 NR on Jedi Temple
~ 30 minutes, one mistake cost him Mara, Obi had ~ 7 force at end
2-1

Game 4 against #8 VAU/Thrawn on Rancor
Almost full time, Killed 2 dignitaries and fodder, after 2-3 turns charged, Hit VAU, Obi takes lightning, swapped Mas, Killed Palps. At end down to Obi (20 HP) and VAU (20 HP) based: Init wins game. He rolls 1, Obi hits and wins by points.
3-1

Game 5 against #14 GGDAC + IG86 on Death Star
~ 40 minutes. Lost Dash, Rex and R2 to kill GGDAC. Came down to 4 IG vs GOWK + 5 force. SSM was working. Finished with 5 force and 70 HP.
4-1

I have to make the obvious comment here, outside of GOWK and 4 other squads (KKBM, Droids, finger's, and Engineer's squads) none of the other squads were even 1.5 let alone tier 1 (I consider the droids and Kyle to be 1.5). You guys are talking about GOWK destroying the field and raising hell, he seriously and obviously didn't face competitive builds:

1) No YoBuck. I still can't figure that out.

2) No maxed out Vong Squad. Warmaster is not the best option for Vong by a long shot.

3) Only one dedicated Rebel triple threat squad (which evidently Atlanta seems to love, they are terrifying if played correctly).

4) Rebel Commandos and Mandos? Really? In a meta full of Disruptive, tempo control, swap, and large HP beat sticks with killer defenses these guys didn't stand a chance vs normal GOWK and Rebels just by the nature of the build.

5) Bane?


Honestly the non-GOWK players will have much better squads, be played much better, and will be armed with JA improvements out the waazoo (Ossus Guardian NR squads, Kol, etc).

Predicting doom and gloom when GOWK won the small Dallas Regional by saturation (and a glaring lack of disruptive apparently), lost to what is quite frankly a mediocre field at best in Wisconsin (mirror matches happen, hell I flew 3000 miles to play in the HeroClix world championship only to face my own dad in a mirror match), and getting knocked around by several Rebel triple threat squads in Atlanta and we are ready to throw in the towel for Gencon? Honestly?

If GOWK wins half the other regionals I will be suprised, I would even be so bold as to guarantee he won't win more than half.

You can bet come heck or high water he won't be winning in Bellevue as long as I draw tournament breath!

Wow I am blown away!!! so Far Gowk is 24-5 in the regionals.... no other squad concept or piece can tote that record even closely.... and you thinks it is a joke. I dont know what else to say.

You have Bane listed as competitive??? You have again lost me on that point.

I would say your local meta is competely different than the national meta if Bane is competitive still at 150.

Nah, I think he was pointing out that Bane WASN'T a competitive build, and therefore not a good test of the higher level of competition that you will face at an event like GenCon.

And to some degree, I fully expect that the Bellevue Regional will be won by a non-GOWK squad. But that's because what I know of the top players out there...most (if not all, hard to remember) are on the "don't ban" side of the fence. Well, here's hoping a ringer shows up and teaches you guys a lesson.

And the Gencon meta would include me playing GOWK. The GOWK players and squads get better as the competitive level improves as well. Seriously, some of our players are newer, don't have access to all the pieces, and just don't play in a hyper competitive environment. I don't see any point in complaining about the squad choices those guys had. I may be mistaken, but I don't think I made any exorbitant claims from this.

Sorry to say it, but I also know something of your venue and area. And I can promise you, we had 5 players (not including me) that are better than anyone in Washington. And I wasn't even playing or we would have had 6. As always, you have to look at relative skill levels, the match ups they played, and so forth. Which is precisely what I did to make my comments about the results. I also know that when we get to Gencon, the top players from each of the regionals (that show up) will mostly be running GOWK, which means your gauntlet to get through without GOWK, in round 5 will be 15-20 of the best players in the world, mostly running GOWK. Good luck with that.

But what would I know of the competitive game....

This isn't a credentials comparison, it's my viewpoint, which you neither respect nor seem to care about.

Just out of curiousity how many of our players have you played? I believe that number is 0. Shinja is one guy, and yes he is a great player, but he isn't the only one. Our former world champ, our Judge who is about 50/50 lifetime vs said world champ alone I would say can win and win consistently. Why? Because they do.

Gencon is a mid western championship at best, same issue with WWC when it had it's Clix tournies. Having a different viewpoint then you doesn't make me wrong. You may not have played HeroClix but I am the strategic mind that built half the winning squads for years and was a non roll of double 1s away from a title against a worst matchup then a Vong vs Rebel Push squad equivalent. I was the best Clix player I ever met and that's not to be egotistical but it is true. I am darn good at miniatures games and am close to being as good of a SWM player I just don't play that competitive of squads usually because I choose not to.

Do I have the 'been playing since Rebel Storm' credentials? No. Never claimed to. (I guess I have the 'playing since Clone Strike though lol)

Belittling me and throwing your ego as the answer to my valid questions is neither the act of a gentlemen much less a world champion. Evidently not being part of the club excludes me from being little more than gum stuck under your shoe.

And throwing out me making fun of your player bases collection is hardly what I was doing I was making a strategic, not collection, comparison.

I can see how GOWK could win Regionals if it faced as easy of a field (You can't say with a straight face that field was above mediocre) but my point is there are great players who are playing greay squads and you annointing GOWK as the National Meta is fine by me, I never have done anything more than play Devil's advocate to the argument and I fail to see how an objective mind can be so narrow. I never have and never will disrespect anyone of a different viewpoint, I realize this is a game, and it isn't as narrow a field as chess strategically, nor is it as wide as some of the crazy CCGs, but it has ebbs, and GOWK is peaking right now.

Is there a TBSV missing from Squad #4? Otherwise I'd really love to know how Jarael moved 10 and pulled off the Triple Attack (so I can do it sometime ).

I'll assume typo.

Couple of points

1) I wouldn't use the DCI rankings for Washington. They, are, um, not very indicative of the skill levels of the players involved. Basically, you have two separate sets of players, some who have played for a very long time and have accrued a high DCI ranking, others who have not been playing very long, but have consistently destroyed the higher ranked players in the rare times the groups have been able to play together.

2) Regardless, I have no objective way of measuring how they compare up to any other area, but neither do you, so quit assuming one way or the other.

3) Our top two players will most likely end up judging Regionals (as well as possibly me, it'll depend how many people show up).

4) Lots of players here love using force power based characters. So GOWK never seemed as ridiculous because many of the "fun" squads people bring tended to include ridiculous amounts of direct damage (notes the 12 year old girl with the fistful of Nightsister Sith Witches, who is cackling and chasing the player who has brought GOWK around the store).

Joelker: it isn't worth it.

He brought in the TBSV with Lobot. (AFAIK in each game). There ya go

I used to love and use nightsister sithwitches.... I understand their strengths. But I guess at some point I quit using them with their whooping 16 defense. Am I missing something? Was there an errata?

To your other points.... I guess I missed where anyone started using rankings or even mentioned them about player skill. But why isnt vassal a good way to judge player skill. I have played folks from your area. I know Bill has. In fact Shinja is one of the people on vassal that I always enjoy playing..... plus he always seems to have Disney on in the background of skype just like me.

I mean really... Saying joelker it isnt worth..... I did not know we were getting ready to rumble!!!

The part where you are a 12 year old girl and think they are the coolest thing in the world. She might purely play squads based on how cool they look, but being a player who loves things that go ZAAAAPPPP, it can make a GOWK squad somewhat unhappy.



I have no idea what people are using as a basis for skill level; most of our players just started using Vassal this last week or two, with the exception of Shinja (who we also all adore...we wish he'd just come up and play with us more often!! Hint hint!) I think the Disney on Skype thing has more to do with a new young'in bein in the household more then anything else.

I'm just tired of this partitioning of players and people going off at each other; our game is not exactly a huge freaking deal to WOTC, and when I know that D&D is on the selling block, I don't want this game getting any weaker in terms of fanbase. Now, because I've talked to you before, I generally assume you're not being super serious when you post online, so I don't take what you say abrasively or harshly, the internet carries tone very poorly. :-p

GOWK may win Bellevue, GOWK may not. But the one thing I'm seeing consistently at every regional is that the best player is winning. I'm OK with that.

Also, I've noticed a distinct lack of discussion about Atlanta; I would think the results from Atlanta are worth looking at...having a HoFamer run GOWK and not get very far is interesting, but is it because of Force Push squads running around, etc etc...

Um ok, where did I throw out credentials again? What the heck are you talking about? I think the only thing close to that that I said was that I believe we had 5 players better than Washington. Let's see, we had 2 Hall of Famers, 2 former Gencon Champs, the guy who has placed 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 3rd at Gencon the past 4 years, JonnyB who has been getting better and better and competes very well with us, as well as a number of other strong players. Oh yeah, and that list doesn't include me

I would be willing to bet, that if you asked virtually anyone outside of your area, if my statement is correct, they would probably agree. The field was strong. I only brought it up because you said it was weak, and then said, "you can bet in Bellvue...." So I made the comparison to add perspective. It wasn't a credentials fight of any kind.

Actually, Vassal is great. I've played several. I would guess it's 4-5 now? Might be higher depending on who plays in your regional and who isn't able to travel.

You don't have a former world champ at your venue. You have someone who won a local tournament of 15 players. It doesn't mean Robin isn't good, but seriously. And then combine that with the following statement and I find it hilarious that you threw that out there.

Lol, clearly you have no idea. Its cool man. A guy who wins a local 15 person tournament scheduled a month before it is the world champ, and then the 75-100 player tournaments at Gencon are simply midwestern regionals. I guess we can't let the California players come this year, or the Pennsylvania, Maryland, Florida, Atlanta, New Jersey, Carolina, British or Canadian players play any more. You hear that Trevor? You aren't allowed to compete this year, its only midwesterners

What's you viewpoint? All you said was that our regional results don't mean anything. That's most certainly wrong. There was a lot to be learned from it, and I've already proven that to be true in my previous posts about it. You need to learn the difference between what a fact and an opinion is first, and second, you are an idiot if you really don't believe opinions can be wrong.

For example, if I were to say, that people from Ontario are rude, that's an opinion, and its wrong. You saying, "GOWK didn't face any competitive builds" is an opinion, and it's wrong. For example (not the only one), Matt played mobile Rebel Force push, in the hands of Engineer in the last round. Engineer is a former Gencon Champ (I refrain from throwing around "world champ" as we have never had one) and a Hall of Famer. His squad is considered by most everyone, to be a Tier 1 counter to GOWK. Matt beat him.

Again what?

Evidently not being able to read a post and making up stang is also a part of what excludes you from the conversation. How did I do either of those? I suggest, telling someone you don't know in any way they are not a gentleman is both immature, baseless, and stupid. Especially in a thread about a tournament I just ran where I gave away 20 rares/VRs, several packs, a CWs starter, and other things out of my own personal collection as part of the best prize package that I am aware of to date. I think people who know me are laughing at you right now. I am very much a gentleman.

You wrote and I quote,



The players running those were relatively new and had limited collections. There was no need for those comments at all. In fact, this is the last that should be said on that subject, as I would be embarrassed to have any of them read your comments. Try reading what you said as if you were that person, who just had a great time, and you placed higher than even you expected. Then some asshole who you don't even know, jumps into a thread celebrating your tournament, and says the above about your squad.


Lol, clearly you don't understand the meta. That's cool man, I don't expect everyone to see it, or agree. You are welcome to think otherwise. But "easy field" isn't representative of any of the three regionals thus far from my understanding of the players in them. I would put any of the top players from any of the three against anyone from Washington, and odds are quite good, that we haven't even seen the top regionals yet, as least as far as the sheer amount of top level players at a given place.

I agree. I just thought Joe was out of line, and he brought up the line of, "that won't ever happen in Bellevue" and challenged the field for competitiveness. All I said about it was that we had 5 players better than Bellevue. That is a little combative, I understand, but no less so than the post I was responding to. It's also something that you guys need to at least partially recognize for once. You guys have been overly defensive over and over again, especially about people who "insult your venue". Yet, your guy does it here to mine, in the same fashion as I have been accused of doing in the past, and I am in the wrong. Fair enough, I apologize. I still stand by the comment, that our event contained plenty of competitive players and squads, which was the point being challenged anyways.

Sweet, glad to hear it, I'm glad someone gets it

Um, I might be mistaken, but where did anyone every predict that the best player would not be winning these things?

Even with that said, let's back up from that statement for a minute. You need to be aware of the oddities of swiss tournaments with small sample sizes. It isn't all that significant which squad actually "wins". When trying to look at a piece's strength, you need to look at other deeper factors, like the match ups and all the other things I have covered.

Speaking of that, Fingersandteeth won ours, but he never faced GOWK. That needs to be considered in the equation.

Well, I am aware of what happened. And I was waiting until Chuck gets a chance to post his tournament result. But suffice it to say, Lou still went 3-1. And having talked to him, he made multiple major mistakes in that game, and his opponent played great! It was a huge win for Greg, the local player who beat Lou in round 2, the biggest the Atlanta group has ever had (according to Chuck). I will name one of the mistakes Lou has said to me, and you tell me if that loss is relevant to the discussion of the strength of GOWK or not. He forgot about Force Defense and could have placed Obi outside of it's range to do a key push on 4 figures, and instead did nothing.

The same is essentially true in Matt's loss to Ben at Racine. I sat there and watched it, and in my head 3 times went, "DOH, Matt what are you doing?" It happens, particularly when people aren't fully practiced up. I know Matt hasn't played more than 10 games with GOWK yet, Lou's played a few more, but hadn't played against Shaak Ti and Yoda of Dag in a while.

And to back up to Atlanta once again, Lou and James played a bunch of games against one another, and James lost to Lou every time with his championship push squad. So what is more telling? That Lou lost one game against a "push squad" of sorts when he wasn't well prepared for that match up and made mistakes, or that James couldn't beat him in multiple tries?

And finally, that isn't to take anything away from any of the players. From what Lou said, the Atlanta guys are very tough, and played great. Deri is a great player and played great. Wedge is also.

Plenty of competitive squads yes; Gencon level, not so much. I think the point that was being gotten at was that we've heard so many...challenges...of what counts as a legitimate tournament/results. It could easily be seen that based on previous comments (in the past), that would be the only "real" way to test how ridiculous GOWK is.



For me, the key to whether I would openly advocate a ban for GOWK would boil down to this: Would GOWK make up for a worse player beating a better player (if you took squad out of the skill equation, which I know you consider part of the skill equation and we've talked about before, but humor me). If it starts coming down to the point that a player has to play GOWK in order to win a tournament; then, yes, boot him out. But I'm seeing even still a fairly diverse meta (even if you say only GOWK or anti-GOWK wins, there were several good squads in that tournament from all factions.) Does Malak ever get played if GOWK is removed? I think a lot of squads that could be considered Tier 1 are removed from that status if GOWK is banned. (Also, i consider Dodonna a far more meta restricting piece then GOWK could ever dream of; that piece wipes entire factions out of the game)



Well this brings up an interesting point. We've always assumed that people would play perfectly at GenCon. Except...these same players haven't been. Now, maybe they gain the tournament experience with their squads necessary between now and GenCon, but there will be a whole new set (with some pretty powerful pieces) floating around.

Hopefully we get that report soon.

Ok, let me address this point, as I think it covers the misunderstanding here.

I do not really care ever, for an "X beat Y, therefore X must be better than Y (or at least competitive with Y) battle report.

I do not accept those as legitimate, I do not draw deep conclusions from them, and I most certainly do not base my ideas about the game on them.

Who actually "wins" a given game isn't all that significant in any of these discussions, and I think perhaps we (as the universal pro-ban crew) have been making to big of a deal out of it.

I think that is directly attributed to the anti-ban stance of, "Let's see what the regionals look like" argument, which is sometimes a truly accurate wait and see attitude, and other times is simply a deflection methodology. For example of the latter, when the Texas results came in, one poster actually used those results to argue that see, this shows GOWK isn't a problem, by arguing that since GOWK didn't take 1-4, but instead took 1,4,6,12. Of course he failed to account for the fact that after swiss, they did single elim with the top 4, and the 2 remaining GOWK's played each other. So the only possible results at that time were, 1,4,6,12 or 2,3,6,12. Even 1,2 was not possible.

This is relevant to my regional. GOWK went 10-1 in non-GOWK games. I don't know if you read the post from our 17 year old's father above, but please reread it. It is quite telling. That 17 year old placed 6th, only losing once game, to another GOWK played by Jonny. He placed ahead of Engineer, a former Gencon Champ.

To say more, only one person beat GOWK without GOWK, and that one was a heavily mistake filled match.

I am not requiring perfection, but I can say this, and I understand the following may be taken as an ego trip or other such garbage but I will say it anyways. If I was playing that particular game, Ben would not have won the way he did. If we had been able to play a top 8 or top 4, Matt would have not made the same mistakes again.

You said that these are top players making them, and I want to be quite clear. The play level at the Gencon Champ is significantly higher at the top tables than what both Matt and Lou have done in these two games, even for them. That's just how it goes. While each of them prepared, they aren't prepped the same as they are for Gencon, and they weren't playing it that way. It's perfectly fine and expected that this happens. I've even predicted it, but everyone seems to forget what my actual predictions were.

Let me ask you this.

If both squads are played perfectly (which does happen at Gencon, or the mistakes are very small that most players wouldn't even recognize as a true mistake), GOWK wins these games easily. Easily. I am dead serious. Try out the Malak squad. It's good, but even Ben, admitted to me, that part of the reason it works is because people aren't prepared for it. He told me, that he thought he would lose if he had to play Matt again.

In the past, would you have argued that played perfectly, in a match up of say, San Hill vs Broken Boba, that one of those would have an advantage over the other? How about last year, between Speedy Cannon and Tint's Boba Cannon (remember, he beat Matt with Speedy in the semis, and lost to me with it in the finals)?

That's the point. What decided games in the past of top tier vs. top tier was minor mistakes, clever tricks, and tiny moves most players wouldn't even recognize as anything significant, and sometimes the dice. Perfect play (or close enough to it for this discussion) does happen. And that's where this becomes a problem.

GOWK has yet to lose a single game in a regional where it is played well. That is the burden you are under. Winning an event isn't the tell tale issue, it's understanding how to interpret these results and to predict what the effects are on Gencon. That is what I am doing.

only 7 t 1.5 squads? I think its a bit unfair. These are squads that have done well in tourneys in the past (Gen Con, consistent area winners, or good builds against the current Meta etc etc)

20. Nathan - GGDAC, Lancer, 2 IGs

18. Breman - Mara, Han, Dodonna, BBSV

16. Terry - Potty Palps, Mithrawn, Arica, Vader U

15. Fred - Kyle BM, Kype, Wede, Dash,

14. Alex - GGDAC - IGs X4, San, BDO

8. David - VAU, Potty Palps, Mithrawn

7. Eric (Engineer) - VAR, Luke HPU, Han Smuggler, Mouse, Ugo, Dodonna, Rieekan, Juno, R2-EA

6. Philip C - GOWK, Arc Trooper Sniper, Dash, R2-AM, ugo, Captain Rex, Mouse X2

5. Tim - Obi U, Luke HPU, Han Smuggler, T3, Rieekan, Juno, Mouse X2, Ugo X2

4. Ben G - Darth Malak, Lobot, Dash, Jarael, Holo Sid, Ugo X2, mouse X2

3. Matt P (MtMagus) - GOWK, JWM, Lobot, Dash, R2, Caamasi

2. Jon B (JonnyB) - GOWK, Lobot, R2, Rex, JWM

1. Deri (Fingersandteeth) - Xizor, Lobot, TBSV X2, Czerka, Ozzel, Mas, Ugo, IG Tarkin

so by my count half the field were upper t2 and above. I see you don't consider Bens squad to be t1 but then he beat a GOWK squad and was 5-10 points away from taking the whole thing (i'll ignore the mistakes and just look at the potential of the squad for now). This means that after the 1st round you have a tough competitive field. I probably got the easiest path to the top, Jonny easily got the hardest which is why he came in 2nd.



it was odd not to see him, particulally after the performance in Texas. But then my squad was designed to counter it. 160 dmg in one turn needing 3-7s to hit is pure yobuck hate.


Maxed out vong squads don't really exist IMO. JH swarms generally get locked out and/or outpointed, Nom/bombs get out pointed unless your opponents are unfamiliar with them. The issue is not enough fast dmg potential. Vong have always been the classic spoiler squad. Everyone says you can't run blah blah because of the vong but the vong have never been something top guys play. They are far too fallable. No vong squad is above t2 IMO.


two actually and the ended up 5th and 7th. Both losing to GOWK.


I'm assuming your talking about Gen COn here? I don't disagree with the improvements perspective. There are certainly more options to put force dmg on GOWK. Kol and the guardians are probably the best additions so far (anakin is not bad but a little fragile). However, there may be some additions that makes GOWK even better. Time will tell.
However, you say that your offering opinions but if you read the sentence above you are basically dismissing this regional becasue you don't like 1/2 the squads and feel like the player skill was poor. The above statement is bordeing on insulting.

But anyway, i don't want to get into a pissing match as i hate them, i'm just analysing your perspective, pointing out some of your bias and offering you an alternative angle.

I've been a big protagonist for 'don't ban GOWK'. I've taken a step back from that because he is so very very tough to deal with and its possible he will become even more of a terror.
The one factor that makes GOWK (and top squads in general) vulnerable is that his best builds are well known and very well documunted so people can plan counter squads knowing what the top GOWK squads are. If he persists in performing well at regionals even with his builds being so transparent then you can't ignore the power held within the piece.
Through the history of this game, any squad that was known to dominate was soon beaten off its perch (e.g. Han/Mara MTB was a terror before Gen Con last year, but was unable to make top 8 because people were prepared for it). If GOWK remains top even with all the hate being designed then you have to conclude that he is excessively overpowered.

The regionals will help to confirm or disprove this. So far the evidence is tilting towards an overpowered GOWK.

Sure, these regionals aren't "legitimate" representations of what GenCon would look like. But for those of us that have competed at GenCon several years, it's actually not that difficult to extrapolate the data from a few smaller sub-sets, and see how it plays out in the bigger scene instead. So we have Regionals this year. Honestly though, 2 out of the 3 Regionals at this point were no bigger than a lot of LGS venues have from week to week. So, in previous years, we've been able to take tourney reports from venues that have 12-16 people (like ours in Cincy, the Wisconsin group, the Missouri guys, the Chicago players, the New Jersey group, etc.) and basically gather the same type of data that we're gathering right now. So, we're able to take that data from localized events, and then see how the main event at GenCon played out, and it becomes a bit more obvious how to interpolate from the small events to the large event.

So, based on the Regionals we've had so far, and based on what the meta appears to be, that's how we make our predictions about GenCon. It's not just hand-waving and jump around based on our own individual experiences. It's a look at the greater whole of the game.



Well, those types of things have been put forward a few times here already. Jonnyb is a decent player, and no offense here, but he's not at the same level as people like fingersandteeth, billiv15, MtMagus, or a few of the other players that were present at the WI event. Bill could expound on that better. There's been quite a few other play-tests and such thrown around as well. I've played several games against StriderRe80 lately, who is just slightly below me skill wise, and even when I'm playing a direct counter squad (Vong, B&B, Rebel Push), and he's playing GOWK, the games were decided by a single init roll, or a single save, or something of that sort. So I would definitely say that GOWK pushes him higher in those games.

The game reports are out there. There's a 60 page thread on WOTC chock full of data. Just because you haven't read it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

And why would removing GOWK hurt Malak squads? Bill has already pointed out that the Malak squad in this tournament won it's game against GOWK because of several mistakes during the game by the GOWK player, while Ben made many less mistakes. But removing GOWK from the meta doesn't reduce Malak's effectiveness. That squad that Ben ran would still be competitive against a host of other things. Plus we should see some OR Malak builds after JA, that are looking like they could be worth considering. Frankly, Malak and the OR Jedi Battlemasters look pretty sweet to me.

There's a thread here on the forums that Fool started titled "Assuming the ban, What happens next". viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6656
Go read it. Several of us have already outlined what we think the meta looks like without GOWK around.



I'm sorry, but again, I think this is just one of the products of the particular local meta that you have in Seattle, as I've had this type of discussion with others from your area. I think the biggest sign that Dodonna does NOT restrict the meta the way you think it does is that Bill won GenCon last year by playing the popular Speedy Cannon squad...but WITHOUT Dodonna. That speaks volumes to me.

And Dodonna isn't anything different than San Hill which we've had for years now, and he's never been dominating of the competitive scene. Sure, Dodonna offers a tad bit different option with the ability to activate two pieces, but ultimately, Dodonna squads play almost exactly the way San squads do.

Oh, and to top it off, Yobuck and the Lancer were designed to be counters to Dodonna squads anyways, as those two pieces can easily wipe out all the little "touch an Ugo, your turn" activations that Dodonna/San squads always pack.

So to say that Dodonna restricts the meta is laughable in my opinion. Dodonna was around at last year's GenCon, and yet there has never been enough frustration over him to bring about discussion on banning.



If you're referring to pieces that you think will help counter GOWK, then you need to again go read up on the various discussions. There just isn't anything there yet. Maybe something in the New Republic could pull it off with all their new Force Push abilities, but then you have to deal with the near auto-loss to Vong, so that's not even really that viable.



QFT

Also, I am (unfortunately) very aware of the statistical oddities that crop up in a system such as swiss. My job requires me to do some, um, heavy statistical and probabilistic analysis of a very large and complex object, so..yeah.

Math is my friend.