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 Post subject: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:35 pm 
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Dallas DCI Regional Tournament Report.

First off, thanks to the great staff at Comic Book Craze in Garland, TX for making the tournament fun and inviting. We had a great turnout and I hope everyone had a great time playing.

I’ll first list off everyone’s squad builds, then overall results, my personal analysis of what turned out, and finally a breakdown of the games I played to the best of my recollection. I hope other people post their game results after mine.

~~~~~~~~Squads~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Disclaimer – everyone got nervous when I said that I was writing down their squads, but then I told them it was for a report and everyone was ok .

*Disclaimer 2 – If I got something wrong, please PM me and I’ll be sure to fix it

Troy: Yoda of Dagobah, Vader’s Apprentice Redeemed, Luke Hoth Pilot Unleashed, Lobot CLO, Rieekan, Uggie, Mouse Droid (MD) x2 (Good ole’ Rebel Push)

Byron: Boba Fett BH, Rieekan, Lobot CLO, Bothan Noble x3, Bespin Guard, Uggie (Machine Gun Boba – he got three Disintegrations in a row in the last game)

Johnny: Lord Vader, Mi’Thrawn, Kel Dor BH x2, Gran Raider x2, Uggie x2, MD x2 (Lord Vader B&B sans Mas)

Bill: Luke’s Landspeeder, Dash Renegade Smuggler, Han Solo Smuggler, Bothan Noble, Gen Dodonna, R2 w/ Extended Sensor, Uggie x2, MDx2 (Nice, well rounded Rebel Landspeeder squad)

Jonathan: Mandalorian Scouts x3, Mandalorian Captain, Mandalorian Gunslinger, Bossk, Lobot CLO (Mando Scout Squad w/ Bossk in tow)

Austin: GOWK, Boba Fett Enforcer, Lando Calrissian Dashing Scoundrel, Dash Rendar RS, MD (GOWK Shooter Squad)

James: Emperor Palpatine on Throne, Twilik Black Sun Vigo x3, Bith Black Sun Vigo, Whipid Tracker x2, Czerka Scientist (Interesting Opportunist Squad)

Jeremy: Mi’Thrawn, Genoharadan Assassin x2, Czerka Scientist, Mas, Dash Rendar RS, Jagged Fel, Death Star Gunner, Uggie x2 (Thrawn Opportunist shooter squad)

Dave: Rebel Vanguard x3, Rieekan, Princess Leia, Boba Fett BH, Human Body Guard, R2 w/ Extended Sensor (an interesting Rebel Missile/BFBH squad)

Frank: Boba Fett BH, Count Dooku of Serenno, San Hill, Uggie x 5 (A “Broken Piece” squad, according to Frank

Timothy: Yoda CS, Boba Fett BH, R2 Astromech, Sev, Mas

Wedge, Todd, and Wade (all identical squads): GOWK, Yoda on Kybuck, Mas, Panaka, R2 Astromech, Gran Raider (GOWK YoBuck Swap Squad)

Mike (Me): Mara Jade Jedi, Kyp Durron, General Wedge Antilles, Lobot CLO, Luke Force Spirit, Gen Dodonna, Wicket, Caamasi Noble, MD, Uggie x2

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Results~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After some great matches, here are the final standings:
1st Place: Wedge (GOWK YoBuck)
2nd Place: James (Palpatine on Throne TBSVs)
3rd Place: William (Bill) (Luke’s Landspeeder Rebel Squad)
4th Place: Wade (GOWK YoBuck)
5th Place: Troy (Rebel Push)

It’s notable that all of these guys (if my info is correct) were 3-1 until the finals. Troy just barely missed out on playing in the final two matches.

The rest of the field:

6th: Todd (GOWK YoBuck)
7th: Byron (BFBH Machine Gun Rebels)
8th: Frank (Seps “Broken” BFBH)
9th: Johnny (Opportunist Lord Vader B&B)
10th: Mike (NR Mara Jade Jedi/Kyp squad)
11th: Jonathan (Mando Scout Squad)
12th: Austin (GOWK Shooters)
13th: Timothy (Yoda CS BFBH)
14th: Jeremy (Mi’Thrawn Genos)
15th: David (Rebel Missiles w/ BFBH)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~My Analysis~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It was interesting that there were only four GOWK squads, but almost everyone I spoke with indicated in one way or another that they were considering GOWK in their squad build (I almost played GOWK myself, but I don’t have an R2 Astromech but if anyone has one for trade, I’ll give a lot...).

I was happy to see the diversity of squads that showed up – I was expecting at least half of the squads to have GOWK, and after talking with Josh (I hope I got your name right – if not I’m sorry and I’ll fix it!) at Comic Book Craze he said that GOWK has been showing up a lot at his weekly tournaments. He didn’t seem to indicate that they were dominating, but GOWK shows up a lot.

I’m also glad that some of the more diverse (in my opinion) squad builds had a very strong showing – it really indicates the strength of the player and squad that made it.

Honestly, I was so surprised by what I saw that I’m still processing it all. I’m glad that everyone had a good time, but I’m still trying to determine what this means for the DCI tourny scene.


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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 5:58 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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well it is good to hear the results I must say I am not shocked by Wedge winning it all. I was a little surprised not to see Frank in the top 4.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:31 pm 
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Not a whole lot to say from it. It played out pretty much like I expected, Wedge ran GOWK and placed 1st. It would be more interesting to see some of the match vs match details, but I recognize Headache was playing, so he can't have all of that.

Otherwise, pretty much what we said it would look like. Regionals will have "odd" meta's based on the knowledge of the other players and what they will play, with some of the guys trying to "counter" that meta. I see Frank did that with his Dooku of Soreno. I would be curious if he thought that was a good choice after wards.

I would also like to know a little more about the skill of the various players. I have an idea about some of them, but as one poster has already put on WotC, "Gowk placing 12 shows it doesn't need to be banned" - which is probably a completely unfair assessment, but hard to say without knowing a little more about the players. Thanks for the report Mike, I look forward to seeing what the other guys say, before I make any "conclusions" based on anything other than seeing the 1st place guy was who I expected, using what I expected.

Also, do you have the information of who played who in the top 4? I was curious if the final breakdown matched the pairings and if 1st beat 4th (GOWK-GOWK).

I would also like to know more about the Vigo squad, and the player who ran it. What map were they using, how did they play it, what match ups did they win and how, etc. I am very surprised that one made it all the way to 2nd. Was this a player skill issue?

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:51 pm 
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When I sat down with Frank for round 1 I mentioned that I don't like Serenno because of the lack of Renewal, and he was almost shocked out of his seat - he said that he thought he had seen DoS w/ Serenno with Renewal on Bloomilk.

I really do think a lot of people were thinking about countering GOWK - Opportunist Lord Vader B&B, a Missile Squad, Rebel Push, and several BFBHs that were hoping for the big D. GOWK affected the tourny meta, but not how I thought it would.

My Round 1:

Me (NR MJJ/Kyp) vs. Frank (Sep BFBH/DoS)
I lost map roll and we played on the Muunilinst Commerce Plaza. I set up low on the starship side and Frank set up north on the opposite side. We jockeyed for position, but I made a mistake and lost Wicket to a shot from BFBH, so Kyp went Savage early. Most of the game we spent with me maneuvering in the lower rooms and Frank maneuvering in the upper rooms with BFBH taking pot shots when he could (I made a lot of positioning mistakes). Second to last round I just threw caution to the wind and started to rush the center, and once time was called I wasn't able to get to his squad to kill enough figures to help. We went to time and Frank won by points.

My Round 2:
Me vs Jonathan (Mando Scouts)
I lost map roll again so we played on the Throne Room map. I set up on the right side, Jonathan in the hallway on the left. First round was maneuvering, me into the throne room and him moving quickly down the hall. I won initiative the second round and was able to take a few shots on an out-of-cover Scout with Mara Jade. I ended up advancing my Camaasi and Luke Spirit into Gambit while taking shots at the figures I could. Kyp was able to take out a Scout with a LS Assault, and MJJ advanced and was able to take out another Scout and the Captain, but not before the Captain managed to kill my Uggie and Camassi with Grenades. It was a fun match - I really like Mando Squads.

More to come:


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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 7:05 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Also, do you have the information of who played who in the top 4? I was curious if the final breakdown matched the pairings and if 1st beat 4th (GOWK-GOWK).


I know that Wedge played the other GOWK squad run by Wade in the first elimination round and James (Vigos) played Bill (Landspeeder ect) on the Death Star. I remember that mostly because James and Bill had played the round before and had to sit down to play again. It was unusual.

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I would also like to know more about the Vigo squad, and the player who ran it. What map were they using, how did they play it, what match ups did they win and how, etc. I am very surprised that one made it all the way to 2nd. Was this a player skill issue?


James seemed to be a younger player (sophmore or junior in HS) but was very tactically sound when I played him. I think he brought Death Star for his map. Generally he seemed to put Palps in gambit first and did a good job of setting up shots when he played me. He protected the Czerka well when I played him. I was impressed (but I also made several mistakes when we played).


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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:05 pm 
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So my first question is whether or not Wedge will be at Gencon.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:21 pm 
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dvader831 wrote:
So my first question is whether or not Wedge will be at Gencon.


I think he's planning on going - he's asked me if I'm planning on going (but I won't be able to this year).


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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 8:56 pm 
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One more set of questions.

Who did each person who went 3-1 lose to?

I think people need to also see how the match ups worked out to make any useful claims.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 9:02 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
One more set of questions.

Who did each person who went 3-1 lose to?

I think people need to also see how the match ups worked out to make any useful claims.


Based on what I saw on Wizos, Troy (Comicsaurus) lost to Wedge and his GOWK/YoBuck squad. Kind of ironic since it was supposed to be a hate squad for GOWK. Probably a difference in player skill, I'm guessing?

Obviously I have no idea on the other 3-1 players.

edit: It looks like Bill (pitcherstar) played the Landspeeder squad. He said he lost to the TBSV squad both times (I assume the second was in the playoff).


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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:17 am 
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Troy played Wedge in the first round, and I'm sure Wedge just did a great job of placement to avoid any pushes.

Bill played James (Vigos) both in the general round 4 and the first playoff round.

James played Wedge in round 2 and lost due to 40 HP figures against YoBuck.

I don't have any idea who Wedge lost to, but it was either in round 3 or 4 (I think it was 3).


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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:52 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
I have an idea about some of them, but as one poster has already put on WotC, "Gowk placing 12 shows it doesn't need to be banned" - which is probably a completely unfair assessment, but hard to say without knowing a little more about the players. Thanks for the report Mike, I look forward to seeing what the other guys say, before I make any "conclusions" based on anything other than seeing the 1st place guy was who I expected, using what I expected.

I think you need to go back and reread the thread Bill. The only person who said anything about not banning GOWK was me, and at no place did i ever say that because he placed 12th he should not be banned. Very misleading.

What i did say is that because it placed 1,4,6,12 it does not need to be banned. Had it finished 1,2,4 or something like that then that would have led to your wanting him banned. The fact a great player played him and won doesn't say anything either way about him being broken. In fact looking at the diversity of the squads, I'd say it looks like any other tourney ever held. The fact Kyle and the vong were not played was also something of a surprise to me as i think they are great squads right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:07 am 
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Ok, so piecing together the information I can from the various posts being made, for the top 6 it seems:


1. Wedge lost to ?

2. James lost to Wedge twice (Potty Vigos vs GOBuck) 4-2

3. Bill lost to James twice (Landspeeder vs Potty Vigos) - 3-2 overall record.

4. Wade lost to Wedge (and someone else) (GOBuck vs GOBuck) 3-2

5. Troy lost to Wedge (Push vs GOBuck - I love the name so it sticks). Since he was the 5th 3-1, that was his only loss.

6. Todd lost to Bill (and someone else) (GOBuck vs Landspeeder) 2-2

Also notable are the finish of the top 3 direct counters that people have argued have a chance not only to beat GOWK, but also can compete. Those were, Boba/Dooku (8th), LV Opp B&B (9th), Rebel Push (5th). Also of note, were the lack of Disruptive squads, and Vong. The lack of Vong does affect the placement of the Push squad in my opinion, although 5-7 is about where it should be, so I think Troy must have played it pretty well anyways. For those who are not familiar with this particular group of players, the guy running Boba/Dooku (Frank) is a very strong player. In 2007 he went 5-2 in the championship. I played him round 4-5 and barely escaped with a win right at the end of the game.

Now, analyzing the matches further, the Potty Vigos clearly couldn't handle GOBuck (which should be obvious given the problem of 40dmg shooters vs those two melee pieces in particular). So for Gencon, you can probably take that one out of the equation.

The Push squad went 1-1 vs GoBuck, which I think is quite good actually, but I am not sure if it wasn't the difference in play skill between the 3 players that mattered more. I also think the push squad would have beaten Potty Vigos had they played, and may have been able to beat the Landspeeder Cannon squad as well. It is worth noting, that in both of his games vs GoBuck, he got reserves, and in the second one (the win) he also got a key crit that killed Panaka. As well, his opponent at one point forgot to attack Luke after basing him...... So I am not convinced this win was a great test game.

The Landspeeder Cannon - this one is interesting. I am not surprised by its finish, and I think it fits one of the types of squads I suggested we shall see at Gencon, in particular, by reading what Bill said about his experiences. I think it's very telling. I have long said, that the heavy shooter squads (usually called "cannon") have trouble in the GOWK meta. The same is true of the Seperatist, NR and now Republic variants. The only way they can win these games, is by killing GOWK's support first, and timing out for the win on points, hoping GOWK can't kill enough in time to catch up. Sure enough, in his win over Todd, here is what he said about it on WotC:

[/quote]I think here is the key to beating a GOWK squad, especially if he doesn't get changed before Gencon. In a timed game, if you can get the point lead early, or take out his support and/or CE (via disruptive), or establish solid door control, then the slow play of GOWK actually works against your opponent in a timed game. And this means movement breakers, like Yobuck, strafing characters, characters with Speed 10 or greater, characters with Accurate Shot, etc. You don't have to play GOWK hate to beat him, you just have to go in with the right strategy. I'm not saying that GOWK isn't hard to beat, or that he's not "broken" but I honestly think that he can be beat, and not just with "GOWK hate".[/quote]

Its also of note that when time was called, GOWK had taken 0 dmg. Todd had failed to kill Han, Dash, the speeder or the Noble (should have been target 1) but that's beside the point. I think this game should clearly show that Pitcherstar (Bill) outplayed Todd and was better prepared for this match in particular.

I also think it offers a great insight into what to expect from Gencon. The top "counters" to GOWK are not the hate squads that barely get close to 50% even against GOWK, it's the guy who outplays a GOWK squad, and uses the time limit, to his advantage. It probably still requires a difference in play skill and experience to pull it off consistently, and I think more variations on GOWK would have made this a more difficult plan.

Either way, Bill did it exactly right, which is why he was able to win against Todd. But note this point once again. GOWK ended the game with 1 FP and 0 dmg. Bill had to play for points, and kill all the support in order to pull off a small points win. He also said Panaka was alive, so that means he won the game by scoring 70 or so points in kills and maybe 4-5 rounds of Gambit. Killing Yodabuck without Yoda killing anything was certainly key, and I think played out over another 8-10 rounds, GOWK would have died as well. But think about what this means. It's exactly what I said the non-hate player would have to do to win. Play for a points win. Is that what the game should be? Should the game revolve around playing GOWK, or trying to escape with a small points win?

@Sithdragon - after reading the above are you still willing to make that claim?

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:26 am 
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What you said was:
Sithdragon13 wrote:
Out of four GOWK squads they finished 2,4,6 and 12th. That does not sound like a fig that needs to be banned to me.

Then obviously you were corrected on the standings as the correct were 1,4,6,12.

Your statement is an incorrect and incomplete analysis. You didn't take the time to see who beat who, reflect on the skill of the players, or on what types of mistakes were made. You also aren't considering what a 4 round slightly more than local tournament will result in. I am going to exclude the guy who finished 12th because it doesn't sound like he was a great player. That's going to happen at Gencon too. If we have 30 out of 120 playing GOWK, there are 15 that won't get near the top 1/2. That's just the reality of the effect of player skill on the game.

Swiss is not meant to determine the rankings. Its meant to determine a winner. So your arguement which is based entirely on final swiss rankings is moot. You made the claim that 1,4,6 means it doesn't need to be banned, but that somehow 1,2,4 would have meant that it should.

What are the differences between these two? The 4th place guy had to play Wedge in the single elimination, so GOWK could not have placed 1 & 2 no matter what. At best, it could have ended at 1,3 if Wedge had lost (would have had higher SoS than the other loser). The guy who placed 2nd, never beat a GOWK squad, and in fact lost both times to it. The guy who placed third, beat the 6th place GOWK, but lost twice to the 2nd place squad, which couldn't beat GOWK. The 6th place GOWK would have went 2-2, and we already know that he lost to the Landspeeder squad, without killing anything, including the Bothan Noble. Personally, and I am piecing together what info I can here, I don't think he was as skilled as his opponents above him, or he just made some key mistakes. We don't know what he lost to in his other loss, but considering what we do know, it's very likely he lost to either 1 or 4 GOWK squad.

I think this tournament showed pretty closely to what I expected and predicted. The best players would play GOWK, and the best players would win. The counters wouldn't fair as well, because they would get beat by the non-counter good squads (Landspeeder beating LV B&B and the Dooku squad). The non-counter counters can compete, but can only do so by trying to outpoint, which when playing the best players with GOWK, isn't easy to pull off consistently.

So to extrapolate this out to saying, "Gowk shouldn't be banned" isn't taking into consideration the actual results. You are simply making an incomplete claim, based on final ranking numbers without looking at what beat what, which is the more important deciding factor, especially when we were not looking at a National Meta, nor a National player base.

I know Wedge is the best player in Texas, so I am not taking anything from him winning with GOWK, other than to say that the best player chose GOWK. What happens when we get to Gencon, and you take the best players let's say there are realistically 20 of them, from around the country, and the majority of them choose GOWK variants? That's when the tournament turns to GOWK in 1,2,4,6,10. Not in a slightly larger than normal local event. When the difference in player skill between the top 20 players is very slim, and a guy with a squad that cannot beat GOWK, does not get through the early rounds (which means 3rd place Landspeeder never has to play him the second time) and spends the day trying to out point the top players in the world running GOWK.

That's why I take exception to your statement. Its shortsighted and quite simply, probably quite wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:29 am 
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Yes, it is no different than when any other "top squad" has done to the meta. B&B was exactly the same way. As i also said, this was the first tourney. We will see what the others bring, but as you and others have mentioned there were no vong and no disruptive. If beating Obi means you have to kill support and time him out...well, a win is a win.

You can psycho-analyze this however you want. We all you know that GOWK is personal for you, but after this one tourney, i would say that he does not need to be banned. We will see what the other regionals bring. Right now the only thing i would support is my recommended change to SSM at best.

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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:42 am 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
Yes, it is no different than when any other "top squad" has done to the meta. B&B was exactly the same way.
Care to explain this statement? That is not how I remember it at all. It also doesn't take into account the lack of movement breakers at the time, the availability and understanding of activation control and functioned at a time where people weren't use to 150pts yet. Most squads at Gencon that year were 100pt squads with Boba added. I used 0 door control in 2006. Engineer should have lost to Matt with Exar Kun, but Rob ruled incorrectly against him and instead of Matt and I playing for the Champ (with a squad that could beat B&B quite well), Eric and I played a mirror match where it was over in 3 rounds when I lost the first init when Vader was based with Vader.

Sithdragon13 wrote:
As i also said, this was the first tourney.
Ok fair enough.

Sithdragon13 wrote:
If beating Obi means you have to kill support and time him out...well, a win is a win.
But that's what I have said all along. Since it turns out to be true, how does that invalidate my argument that he needs to be banned? How does beating a slightly less skilled opponent, by out playing and out pointing them, leaving their GOWK at full health intentionally, make the argument that GOWK is now good for the game? That's what I don't get. Especially since its the very statement I made months ago on the topic, about how you would beat GOWK. It was also present in my playtest results on WotC, where I did it twice.

Sithdragon13 wrote:
We all you know that GOWK is personal for you
Wtf? How is it personal? I want what's best for the game, pure and simple. I have never made this personal, and you using that to be dismissive of my arguments is a very sad commentary on your lack of actual substance with which to debate the topic. For the record, I have not been personally assaulted or offended in any way by the plastic figure GOWK. Nor have my feelings ever been hurt in anyway by the issue or the discussion. That might be the most ridiculous thing ever said to me....

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:01 am 
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I think the interesting thing to note about the player that came in 12th, is that it appears that they had absolutely no door control at all, at least from the report that Troy wrote up about locking him into the center room, and headache didn't mention any door control in the first post either.

So that, right away, tells me that this was a) not an optimal squad, and b) if it's a sub-optimal build AND the player placed low in the rankings, that it was probably not run by a top-level player. Therefore, can pretty much be handled as an outlier in the current system.


And I don't find it unusual at all that the Potty Vigos finished high. Would all depend on what squads he had to face. In smaller tournaments like this, I have had plenty of times where I end up playing 2 young kids at the LGS the first 2 rounds, then get a lucky pairing for round 3 against one of the better players, but not one is THAT tough for me to beat. Thus allowing me to skate through to the final round without too much opposition, simply due to skill level. Depending on what point in the swiss rounds James (Potty Vigos) had to play Wedge, it doesn't surprise me at all that he made it all the way to 2nd. Plus, if Wade had issues against, say, one of the hate squads (perhaps Wedge and Wade both lost to the same mystery squad?), that drops his strength of schedule.

But I think it's telling that both Wedge and Wade's GOWK squads took losses, but still came out on top of the pile.

Definitely interested in what the other Regionals will end up showing. Wasn't there another one yesterday?

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:20 am 
Death Star Designers
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billiv15 wrote:
Wtf? How is it personal? I want what's best for the game, pure and simple. I have never made this personal, and you using that to be dismissive of my arguments is a very sad commentary on your lack of actual substance with which to debate the topic. For the record, I have not been personally assaulted or offended in any way by the plastic figure GOWK. Nor have my feelings ever been hurt in anyway by the issue or the discussion. That might be the most ridiculous thing ever said to me....

This is exactly why i say its personal for you.
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That is not how I remember it at all. It also doesn't take into account the lack of movement breakers at the time, the availability and understanding of activation control and functioned at a time where people weren't use to 150pts yet.
meta change and evolve from year to year. Funny how GOWK should be banned and yet looking at the past gencon squads,in 07 JWMs finished 1,4,5 (gee those numbers sound familiar). In 08 Han cannon was 1,2,3!!! How was that not a problem! B&B was a huge problem when you unleashed it, but the difference was that the game changed ALOT! before the next gencon and several things popped up that nerfed it to a large degree(disruptive, activation controls, etc).

When i play i dont care if i beat my opponent with a GOWK with 10HP or if he is untouched with 0 DAM. A win is a win. At no point have i ever said that GOWK isnt a great fig or a power fig in the game right now (right now being the key word). He is power, but he is also beatable if played correctly. If nothing in the past deserved banning, then GOWK is no different. Things will change, again. That is a given.

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:43 am 
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edited
i was going to say something that was just plain rude thats why i edited it.


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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:48 am 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
meta change and evolve from year to year. Funny how GOWK should be banned and yet looking at the past gencon squads,in 07 JWMs finished 1,4,5 (gee those numbers sound familiar). In 08 Han cannon was 1,2,3!!! How was that not a problem! B&B was a huge problem when you unleashed it, but the difference was that the game changed ALOT! before the next gencon and several things popped up that nerfed it to a large degree(disruptive, activation controls, etc).


It's no surprise that the meta changes. But comparing the restricted meta of the 2005 or 2006 championships is silly (yep, going to use that word), IMO. In 2006 there were only 5 sets released at that point. Almost 1/3 of what we have now. So of course the meta was restricted, because there wasn't enough diversity for it to be any other way.

Yes, there were 4 JWM squads in the top 8 in 2007 (not sure if you're talking after the Swiss rounds, or the finals, so I'm not sure which squads you're actually referring to). But they weren't the CENTER of all those squads either, necessarily. The only JWM-centric squad in the finals were the JWM x4 squads, and they didn't make it all the way. It was the squad that used Boba BH. So the JWMs were support pieces. In addition, Divot's game against my San squad came down to 2 different rolls that went in his favor (I rolled a 6 needing a 7 for the final kill, then I lost the next init).

Regardless, the JWM has ALWAYS been a piece that required other supporting figures in order to truly be considered top-tier. Yes, by itself, compared to other figures of comparable cost, it has great abilities. But it still requires the squad synergy in order to be catapulted to the top (again, look at the JWM x4 + Weequay Leader build, which didn't have enough versatility to be fully competitive).

The 2008 competition is again a lot more of the same. Saying that Han Cannon squads finished in the top 1, 2, 3 spots doesn't mean everything (again, don't know if you're talking about swiss vs. elimination rounds, but I'm pretty sure TINT's Boba squad was Bill's final opponent). We all know that once you get to that last round or 2 of games, 95% of those games come down to whether an opponent makes a mistake, or misses some critical dice roll. This happened to me in 2 different games last year. Against Matt Tremblay in the 6th round, I shot at his Human Bodyguard with my Boba BH, which would've given me the lead on points since time was out, and I missed the 2nd shot, rolling a 5, needing a 6 to hit (there was a pattern here, lol). Then again in the quarter-finals against TINT, I missed a crucial shot to kill his Bothan Noble, and again I missed the 2nd shot, rolling a 6, needing a 7.

So yes, Speedy Cannon was a good squad in 2008. But NOBODY identified early on that it was going to completely rule the tournament scene. Several people felt it was competitive, but it had vital weaknesses as well, and ultimately some players, like myself, decided that those weaknesses weren't something they felt comfortable being able to overcome. Other players like Bill or MtMagus, they did perfectly fine with them. It wasn't necessarily a measure of the squad's strength, it was a measure of their playing skill, and their overall familiarity with the squad.

Heck, I rode San's Hunters to top 8 in 2008. Nobody expected to be worried about that squad, as all the pieces in it were over a year old...3 sets old! Bill has pretty much told me that he thought it was a dumb idea for me to run the same squad again (hasn't used those words, but that's the general impression I've got from several conversations). But that didn't bother me, because it was what I was familiar with, and what I was confident I could win consistently with. And I did win consistently. That's not a testament to how strong the squad was, because looking back, it was definitely weaker than a lot of other possible options. It was how well it was played.

You can't say these same things about GOWK. We are seeing over and over again where players make mistakes with GOWK and still come out on top. Bill's outline of the odds are pretty well spot on from a lot of people's experiences so far. Yes, there are counter squads out there. But it's not like the days ob B&B vs San Hill, where the San squad actually had a pretty big advantage. There is no San Hill for GOWK. The best counters that anyone has come up with yet are typically coming down to a single dice roll: a save of 11, or a key initiative, or things of that nature. How can that possibly be a meta that is comparable to history?

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 Post subject: Re: Championship 2009: Dallas Regional Tournament Report
PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:58 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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LoboStele wrote:
Bill has pretty much told me that he thought it was a dumb idea for me to run the same squad again (hasn't used those words, but that's the general impression I've got from several conversations). But that didn't bother me, because it was what I was familiar with, and what I was confident I could win consistently with. And I did win consistently. That's not a testament to how strong the squad was, because looking back, it was definitely weaker than a lot of other possible options. It was how well it was played.


Hey well my recommendation was using Boba Merc, which Lou did, and he only went 5-2 and finished 9th :) Of course, he did take a 2nd round double disintegration, and then faced me in the final round of swiss, where it came down to the very end when a 40HP Han, killed a 20HP Boba.

Otherwise, you covered Sithdragon's post of altered reality quite well. JWMs dominated in 2007? What tournament were you at? The actual rankings after swiss had Broken Boba (which used the JWMs as interference, same as my WFFs were used and was clearly not played as a JWM squad if you saw him run it), and then in 7th and 8th were two different JWM swarms. 7th had Bossk BH, and 8th had Aurra Sing. 8th went down easily to Broken Boba, which according to your logic, should never have happened since 4 JWMs should have easily handled only 2 and a more expensive shooter who does 40, whereas his would do 30, and the Bossk one beat me. I lost 154-152, when a 10hp JWM killed my Han Scoundrel in the final minute. I missed at one point, over 20 shots (I think it was 24 in a row but I honestly don't remember) with Han. I lost two key inits that cost me Leia in one round, and two WFFs in another one. And I still almost won. Oh yeah, and I lost the map roll as well, that was a key point. So JWMs were dominant? Not quite. I know just outside the top 8 were more San Hill in several spots, and I think 2-3 NR. There really weren't a bunch of other JWM squads dominating anything.

And there were two distinct Han Cannon squads in 2008, that differed significantly more than the GOWK variants. Matt and I ran speedy Cannon, whereas Matt Trembly had an MTB Cannon entirely dependent on Han alone. I beat him fairly easily in the semis. I was expecting to face you, which would have been a much tougher squad match up.

I just want to back up and point out that the only two Speedy Cannon's that got anywhere near the top were me and Matt. There were other Han squads (only MT's was in the top 16) and other Speeder squads (don't think any made the top 16) but outside of those 3, there weren't a bunch of others, even though something like 20 squads used the Snowspeeder or Han Scoundrel in their build. I don't call that anything close to the dominance I am predicting for GOWK this year.

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