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Should General Obi be Banned?
yes 45%  45%  [ 55 ]
no 45%  45%  [ 54 ]
not decided 10%  10%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 121

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:30 pm 
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:
Cybit wrote:
That was addressed to DarkLordVerjal, who claimed GOWK being power-creeped out of the game by 2010 would not happene...my comment was merely that of "you have no idea what's coming either, so that isnt useful...."


No, I know GOWK won't be around. So maybe before you say something and appear like an idiot, you should choose patience.


Um...

Figures that are banned are only banned as long as a certain sentence or two remain in the DCI SWM Floor Rules. How long that sentence stays there depends on what pieces come out and what certain people feel those pieces re-allow back into the game.

dnemiller wrote:
yeah that is it because if one figure gets banned we suddenly have to go down a slippery slope.

What I cannot fathom is why such doom and gloom. Just because a figure is banne doesnt mean it stays banned. Things shift in the game new abilities comes around and figures like maps can suddenly become legal again. I guess I missed the slippery slope when the Mustafar map was banned.


EDIT: No point in fanning the flames.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 8:53 pm 
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The biggest reason I see for banning the General, over Boba BH, etc, is that the others have their weaknesses. With Boba, a couple bad evade rolls, or a good beatstick in base, means he won't be doing anything anymore. With GOWK, he can block any attack from anyone, and with FPRR's, can further guarantee his own survival. Not to mention his CE, which turns support into tanks.

My point? Boba has weaknesses, and, for all intents and purposes, Obi-Wan does not. My best ideas are shot to pieces by his support, and until he runs out of FP's, he's nigh indestructible.

I think this sums up most of the arguments for banning GOWK, with some use of exaggerations. Pllease don't kill me for that :P

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:22 pm 
Third Jedi from the Left
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gwek wrote:
Draconarius wrote:
...but any further bans will not come until months of playtesting have been conducted on the piece. That's what happened with GOWK, so there will be no reason to expect anything less on another piece.


See, that's my concern with banning GOWK. The decision to ban should, reasonably, take months of playtesting. However, the game is constantly evolving. Even without stand-alone pieces, a new set releases, on average, every four months. To a certain extent, a new set "invalidates" the months of playtesting that just occurred. The majority of the playtesting was done without the addition of Jedi Academy, and even any Jedi Academy testing is not necessarily legitimate because we're still missing 6 pieces...

Confounding this is the fact that Rob works about a year in advance, on multiple sets at a time, and often "builds backwards." There have been many times a character has been introduced and the full impact and/or counters haven't become apparent until one, two, or even three sets came into play. What happens when counters for GOWK--who are also countered by GOWK--are introduced? The game is generally self-adjusting thanks to Rob (although it can take time), and taking one piece out is throwing a pebble in a lake... and we're not sure where the ripples go.

I'm pretty sure that by 2010, the game will have shifted enought that GOWK will no longer be a pre-eminent, unstoppable force.

In a sense, why NOT let 2009 be "the year of GOWK"? If nothing else, the creation of GOWK as a gatekeeper has shaken up the greater meta and caused a number of new squad ideas to be tested out (and some have been quite successful). Is a bunch of GOWK for a year really much worse than a few years of Han Cannon, San Hill, and Thrawn?

All of which is to say that I'm not necessarily saying he SHOULDN'T be banned...

Sorry if I've meandered a bit. Just had a few thoughts (and no conclusions!) that I want to get out.


I'm actually a bit scared by the thought of GOWK becoming an average piece. Everything pre-GOWK would be truly useless if that ever happens. And there's no reason why the ban would be permanent. If something else comes out that does properly hold GOWK back (without being broken by itself), then I'd be amongst the first to ask for him to be de-banned.

I don't know. The current rumour is that GOWK is indeed going to be banned, and even if he isn't, it's kinda out of our hands.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:49 pm 
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DarkLordVerjal wrote:
boba90 wrote:
I think GOWK sould be banned beacause of his insane stat's and low point cost, but I also think he shouldn't be banned because then in the future there could be more ban's and they could also ban Boba, BH and Mara Jade, Jedi the two most broken piece's before GOWK. and that's not right. I mean I hate GOWK as much as all you others especially when I have to use The new Dooku against my brother all the time just to have a chance of beating him, but I don't want to start seeing a whole lot of other ban's like Grand Master Luke Skywalker, he can do six attack's against GOWK and GOWK could roll his saves, but if he misses his save that's it, because luke will force defense against the reroll's with MOTF2 and mettle.
So I voted yes ban him, but after reading your guy's posts and rethinking it over I regret it. There are a lot of way's to counter him and Lord Vader and Count Dooku of Serreno are the best ones.

P.S. if their is any way I could change my vote please change it to no.

Boba Bh isn't broken, his Distigration is. I wouldn't mind an errata, but I don't intended to stand around with a sign yelling for a ban. Mara Jedi broken? Really? I have not heard that one before. But GOWK, unlike Boba BH, isn't made unfair by 1 SA. It's multiple. Soresu-Mettle-MOTF2-amazing CE-Knight speed to get him out of dodge if he is in trouble. Also, GM Luke broken? You clearly have not playtested him. :?

gwek wrote:
I'm pretty sure that by 2010, the game will have shifted enought that GOWK will no longer be a pre-eminent, unstoppable force.

Yeah...About that...Don't count on that. ;)


I'm agaisnt all ban's because that takes the fun out of playing a game. From experience playing the new count dooku against GOWK has never failed me. Same with Lord Vader, I kill GOWK when I get up to him when I use Vader and the new Thrawn. I was told by many players and miny people on Bloomilk.com that Boba, BH and Mara Jade, Jedi were the two most broken characters in the game, before GOWK. GM Luke I guess isn't broken, but he is insanly good.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:27 am 
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boba90 wrote:
I'm agaisnt all ban's because that takes the fun out of playing a game. From experience playing the new count dooku against GOWK has never failed me. Same with Lord Vader, I kill GOWK when I get up to him when I use Vader and the new Thrawn. I was told by many players and miny people on Bloomilk.com that Boba, BH and Mara Jade, Jedi were the two most broken characters in the game, before GOWK. GM Luke I guess isn't broken, but he is insanly good.


It's part and parcel of collectable games, my friend. A mini is going to be banned sooner or later, it's inevitable. It's happened to every other game I've heard of; there is no reason to think that SWM is going to be immune to having a piece banned to preserve the fun of the game. Heck, given the quality control of this game is somewhat... lacking... I'd say SWM has got a higher chance of broken pieces slipping through the cracks than your average collectable game.

And really, wouldn't you rather get rid of a broken piece than drive yourself insane fighting it every time you play?


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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:51 am 
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boba90 wrote:
DarkLordVerjal wrote:
boba90 wrote:
I think GOWK sould be banned beacause of his insane stat's and low point cost, but I also think he shouldn't be banned because then in the future there could be more ban's and they could also ban Boba, BH and Mara Jade, Jedi the two most broken piece's before GOWK. and that's not right. I mean I hate GOWK as much as all you others especially when I have to use The new Dooku against my brother all the time just to have a chance of beating him, but I don't want to start seeing a whole lot of other ban's like Grand Master Luke Skywalker, he can do six attack's against GOWK and GOWK could roll his saves, but if he misses his save that's it, because luke will force defense against the reroll's with MOTF2 and mettle.
So I voted yes ban him, but after reading your guy's posts and rethinking it over I regret it. There are a lot of way's to counter him and Lord Vader and Count Dooku of Serreno are the best ones.

P.S. if their is any way I could change my vote please change it to no.

Boba Bh isn't broken, his Distigration is. I wouldn't mind an errata, but I don't intended to stand around with a sign yelling for a ban. Mara Jedi broken? Really? I have not heard that one before. But GOWK, unlike Boba BH, isn't made unfair by 1 SA. It's multiple. Soresu-Mettle-MOTF2-amazing CE-Knight speed to get him out of dodge if he is in trouble. Also, GM Luke broken? You clearly have not playtested him. :?

gwek wrote:
I'm pretty sure that by 2010, the game will have shifted enought that GOWK will no longer be a pre-eminent, unstoppable force.

Yeah...About that...Don't count on that. ;)


I'm agaisnt all ban's because that takes the fun out of playing a game. From experience playing the new count dooku against GOWK has never failed me. Same with Lord Vader, I kill GOWK when I get up to him when I use Vader and the new Thrawn. I was told by many players and miny people on Bloomilk.com that Boba, BH and Mara Jade, Jedi were the two most broken characters in the game, before GOWK. GM Luke I guess isn't broken, but he is insanly good.


Luke is also insanly over costed. But still playable.

Banning does not take away the fun. It adds to it. It makes the game interesting. Other wise it would become stayle.

Mara Jade, Jedi is lame.

I find boba merc more annpying that bh.

Take a look at Magic standard format. Where basically you can only use like pieces from like the last 5 sets. It keeps the game fresh. Like that is their most popular format?

I still do not know what to think of lord Vader. He is all most no fun to play against, and not very good at useing him.

Duku is great but dies to vong jedi hunters unless you can roll some crits.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:46 am 
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boba90 wrote:
DarkLordVerjal wrote:
boba90 wrote:
I think GOWK sould be banned beacause of his insane stat's and low point cost, but I also think he shouldn't be banned because then in the future there could be more ban's and they could also ban Boba, BH and Mara Jade, Jedi the two most broken piece's before GOWK. and that's not right. I mean I hate GOWK as much as all you others especially when I have to use The new Dooku against my brother all the time just to have a chance of beating him, but I don't want to start seeing a whole lot of other ban's like Grand Master Luke Skywalker, he can do six attack's against GOWK and GOWK could roll his saves, but if he misses his save that's it, because luke will force defense against the reroll's with MOTF2 and mettle.
So I voted yes ban him, but after reading your guy's posts and rethinking it over I regret it. There are a lot of way's to counter him and Lord Vader and Count Dooku of Serreno are the best ones.

P.S. if their is any way I could change my vote please change it to no.

Boba Bh isn't broken, his Distigration is. I wouldn't mind an errata, but I don't intended to stand around with a sign yelling for a ban. Mara Jedi broken? Really? I have not heard that one before. But GOWK, unlike Boba BH, isn't made unfair by 1 SA. It's multiple. Soresu-Mettle-MOTF2-amazing CE-Knight speed to get him out of dodge if he is in trouble. Also, GM Luke broken? You clearly have not playtested him. :?

gwek wrote:
I'm pretty sure that by 2010, the game will have shifted enought that GOWK will no longer be a pre-eminent, unstoppable force.

Yeah...About that...Don't count on that. ;)


I'm agaisnt all ban's because that takes the fun out of playing a game. From experience playing the new count dooku against GOWK has never failed me. Same with Lord Vader, I kill GOWK when I get up to him when I use Vader and the new Thrawn. I was told by many players and miny people on Bloomilk.com that Boba, BH and Mara Jade, Jedi were the two most broken characters in the game, before GOWK. GM Luke I guess isn't broken, but he is insanly good.

I hope you enjoy using your 2 pieces that can effectively kill GOWK. I will enjoy killing them with a non-GOWK squad. Dooku is almost horrible without renewal, and is only decent against GOWK because he was made to do just that. Lord Vader is an amazing piece, but in 150 you have very little filler left. I garentee you will be out activated but most other squads. Not to mention, he is using 2 FPs a turn to hit GOWK for maximum damage, while using overwhelming force to ensure it sticks. But you need 8s, which may not sound like a lot, but rolling above 8 4 times is harder than you would think...I digress. In the end, you play 2 pieces to be able to kill GOWK(not even killing him each time, I might add.), but lose to everything else. That is not the game I got into.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:59 am 
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Lord Vader with Opportunist from the new Thrawn needs 4's to hit GOWK.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:31 am 
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R5Don4 wrote:
Lord Vader with Opportunist from the new Thrawn needs 4's to hit GOWK.


Assuming you outactivate your opponent. Not as easy as it sounds.

And that gives the Republic player another weapon against you. If I see you've got Lord Vader in position, I might just move Obi-Wan inside your strike range to tempt you. You step out to attack him, perhaps even kill him... then my Dash and Rex (which would be my preffered GOWK build) eat Lord Vader alive. Trading 55 points for 71 sounds like a good deal for me.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:47 am 
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Draconarius wrote:
Assuming you outactivate your opponent. Not as easy as it sounds.

And that gives the Republic player another weapon against you. If I see you've got Lord Vader in position, I might just move Obi-Wan inside your strike range to tempt you. You step out to attack him, perhaps even kill him... then my Dash and Rex (which would be my preffered GOWK build) eat Lord Vader alive. Trading 55 points for 71 sounds like a good deal for me.


With most Lord Vader builds you do/should out activate your opponent. Against a Republic GOWK squad it rally should eb that easy. However, if for some reason you don't, the game is far from over for Lord Vader if GOWK is down. Dash and Rex without crits can do 160 damage... Dash needs (with GOWK dead) 11's and Rex needs 9's if Vader has no cover. So say they both roll well hit 3 a piece.... Thats 120 damage, which isn't enough to kill Vader. Throw in the fact he has Dark Armor and MOTF 2. Lets say he makes 1/4 of his saves (dang dice!) so take off 20... Thats 100 damage, he rerolls 2 of the saves and makes 1 more. Now were at 90... Init roll, Thrawn wins you shoot at Gran Raider. Vader player takes the 55 point to 4 point trade...

Lord vader like most Vaders can easily last a round of Dash and Rex...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:47 am 
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You can't assume that the GOWK/Rex/Dash variant is the only one you'll see though. IMO, that's the EASIEST one for a Lord Vader squad to beat. Most of those LV builds typically have 12 activations, in my experience, and the GOWK/Rex/Dash builds typically have 9. However, that includes a Human Bodyguard. If the bodyguard isn't in there, then it's more like 11-12 activations.

So here's how it plays out. If the Bodygaurd is in there, then if the GOWK player is dumb enough to leave themselves within 18 of a swap piece, then at the end of a round Vader swaps in, and tries to go to town on GOWK. Well, LV will be doing 30 per hit at a +18. So, statistically, needing 4's or better, he'll miss 1 out of 6 or 7 attacks. So, for the sake of argument, let's say LV is lucky and hits all 4 attacks. Well, the Human Bodyguard is going to soak up 2 of those, so GOWK only takes 60 damage. Now, Thrawn wins init, and LV now has to spend 2 MORE FPs on Overwhelming and Assault again, this time needing 8's to hit. If he misses two of those, GOWK lives, which seeing as how LV hit all 4 in the previous turn...odds are, he's going to miss two of these attacks. Now you're in serious trouble.

But even if LV does manage to finish off GOWK. He now eats probably 90-120 damage from Rex/Dash, and you still have..what, probably 30 minutes of game left...at least? More than enough time for Rex/Dash to pick off fodder, gather a bunch of gambit...LV is going to have to swap in at least 1 more time in order to go for a kill on Rex or Dash, and then just hope that he can survive the volley from the other piece.

And again, this is all dependent on ONE matchup. If you have the Dash/JWM variant that I like running, it can have 12 activations. Oh, and an Accurate Shooter or two to pick off your Gran Raiders. I beat a LV/Thrawn squad at our Regional and the only piece worth points that I lost was R2, and that was because I intentionally sacrificed him. Now, granted, the guy I was playing against wasn't necessarily a very seasoned player, but he was 3-1 at the point when I faced him, so he had been doing well the rest of the day till that point. But with my squad, I was able to pick off 2 of his swap pieces in the first round, then 1 or 2 more the next round. He put 40 damage on GOWK, that was it (missed 2 out of 4, needing 8's...sound familiar?).

So this is the problem with just splurting out "Oh, well, Lord Vader or Dooku of Serreno will trash GOWK". It's not a 1 on 1 fight. And it's not just 1 single squad vs. 1 single squad. How does your LV squad deal with Vong? Or does it deal with Rebel Push that has Dodonna and SEVERELY out-activates you? These are the things you have to consider.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:03 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
You can't assume that the GOWK/Rex/Dash variant is the only one you'll see though. IMO, that's the EASIEST one for a Lord Vader squad to beat. Most of those LV builds typically have 12 activations, in my experience, and the GOWK/Rex/Dash builds typically have 9. However, that includes a Human Bodyguard. If the bodyguard isn't in there, then it's more like 11-12 activations.

So here's how it plays out. If the Bodygaurd is in there, then if the GOWK player is dumb enough to leave themselves within 18 of a swap piece, then at the end of a round Vader swaps in, and tries to go to town on GOWK. Well, LV will be doing 30 per hit at a +18. So, statistically, needing 4's or better, he'll miss 1 out of 6 or 7 attacks. So, for the sake of argument, let's say LV is lucky and hits all 4 attacks. Well, the Human Bodyguard is going to soak up 2 of those, so GOWK only takes 60 damage. Now, Thrawn wins init, and LV now has to spend 2 MORE FPs on Overwhelming and Assault again, this time needing 8's to hit. If he misses two of those, GOWK lives, which seeing as how LV hit all 4 in the previous turn...odds are, he's going to miss two of these attacks. Now you're in serious trouble.

But even if LV does manage to finish off GOWK. He now eats probably 90-120 damage from Rex/Dash, and you still have..what, probably 30 minutes of game left...at least? More than enough time for Rex/Dash to pick off fodder, gather a bunch of gambit...LV is going to have to swap in at least 1 more time in order to go for a kill on Rex or Dash, and then just hope that he can survive the volley from the other piece.

And again, this is all dependent on ONE matchup. If you have the Dash/JWM variant that I like running, it can have 12 activations. Oh, and an Accurate Shooter or two to pick off your Gran Raiders. I beat a LV/Thrawn squad at our Regional and the only piece worth points that I lost was R2, and that was because I intentionally sacrificed him. Now, granted, the guy I was playing against wasn't necessarily a very seasoned player, but he was 3-1 at the point when I faced him, so he had been doing well the rest of the day till that point. But with my squad, I was able to pick off 2 of his swap pieces in the first round, then 1 or 2 more the next round. He put 40 damage on GOWK, that was it (missed 2 out of 4, needing 8's...sound familiar?).

So this is the problem with just splurting out "Oh, well, Lord Vader or Dooku of Serreno will trash GOWK". It's not a 1 on 1 fight. And it's not just 1 single squad vs. 1 single squad. How does your LV squad deal with Vong? Or does it deal with Rebel Push that has Dodonna and SEVERELY out-activates you? These are the things you have to consider.


Am I the only person who gets within 28 of Rex/Dash, runs in, wins init, blows one of them the hell up, then takes the attacks from a JWM/Rex/Obi (two of the three), swaps out, and then gets within 28 of their next 80 or less HP piece, rinse, lather, repeat (using rage if it has more then 80 HP, or to be able to miss one and get away with it)?

GOWK is a complete non factor. You kill Rex, you kill Dash (where all of a sudden, staying 19 away gets you based and murdered), and then take your sweet time and murder GOWK.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:18 am 
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No figures should be banned -- not GOWK, not Boba BH, not Thrawn, not any others.

Find a way to beat them.

And with 1000's of combos to try and new figures coming out, it can be done.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:35 am 
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empirejeff wrote:
Luke is also insanly over costed. But still playable.


I think GMLS is just fine for his cost. He's meant to be run with a few certain, low cost characters.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:19 am 
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Cybit wrote:
Am I the only person who gets within 28 of Rex/Dash, runs in, wins init, blows one of them the hell up, then takes the attacks from a JWM/Rex/Obi (two of the three), swaps out, and then gets within 28 of their next 80 or less HP piece, rinse, lather, repeat (using rage if it has more then 80 HP, or to be able to miss one and get away with it)?

GOWK is a complete non factor. You kill Rex, you kill Dash (where all of a sudden, staying 19 away gets you based and murdered), and then take your sweet time and murder GOWK.


Yep, this can work. But again, you're forgetting the bodyguard factor. Any squad running a BG, you can't do this. The Human Bodyguard will soak up at least two of Lord Vader's hits, unless you can manage to come in at the end of a round and do Rage/Assault against either Rex/Dash. If you have to attack at the beginning of a round, then you're only doing 30 per hit, and guess what happens. BG soaks up two hits, Rex/Dash is left alive with 10 HP. Now Vader eats 4 shots from Rex/Dash, making it so that Vader would have a tough time making that kind of strike again in any following round. Sure, Rex/Dash might still die from the Stormie that is swapped in the following turn, but there's also the chance that Vader could die before he swaps out.

Going in for the Rex/Dash kill at the beginning of the round only works if the opponent isn't packing a bodyguard, and IMO, that's VERY rare. It also assumes that you out-activate enough such that you can run up swap fodder near the end of a round, swap in, then run Vader up within 6 (or 8 if no BG I guess). If the acitvations are similar enough, you might find that swap fodder you ran up gets picked off by Dash/Rex before you can put Vader into position. Or you find that Vader takes a few pot shots before he engages, in which case, even more chance that he ends up dying before you can swap him out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:43 am 
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Chargers wrote:
No figures should be banned -- not GOWK, not Boba BH, not Thrawn, not any others.

Find a way to beat them.

And with 1000's of combos to try and new figures coming out, it can be done.

Yeah you have fun running your "1000 different combos" and winning against 12 years olds near you. Tell me how that works out.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:09 pm 
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True, keeping a BG next to all the targets would keep him safe a little while.

But I'd think an Ozzel variant would severely outactivate, to the point where you should be able to run in within 8, then swap out for LV, spend for speed, sweep the BG and target at the end of the round. At this point, it'll all depend on the players involved, map, etc... Regionals have shown to me (IMO) that player skill > GOWK, even between two closely matched players, the better player still wins, even if its GOWK vs not GOWK hate (but has 20 to 30 auto damage a round).

The two times I played, first time he had the BG next to R2, Dash, and GOWK, so ran up 28, won init, blew Rex up, got hit for like 40 from Dash, and swapped out. Second time, I spent for speed (he was 20 away), swept the BG (killing BG) and Dash, then proceeded to win init, kill dash and hide until swap.

Man, if they had just given LV Knight Speed or Master Speed....mmmmm....

Man, this is what happens when they don't give us more JA previews...yeesh...


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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:19 pm 
Master of the Order
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Chargers wrote:
No figures should be banned -- not GOWK, not Boba BH, not Thrawn, not any others.

Find a way to beat them.

And with 1000's of combos to try and new figures coming out, it can be done.


We have found ways to beat GOWK. This has NEVER been about beating GOWK. This has been about what it takes to beat GOWK, and to do it consistently. And therein lies the problem. There aren't "1000s of combos" that will work to beat GOWK on a regular basis. Heck, there aren't even 2 or 3 that will be him on a REGULAR basis.

It's not about him being unbeatable. It's the fact that, yes, there are 1000s of combos available in the game, but the presence of GOWK in the game reduces that to about 5 combos that are competitive at the top tables.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:24 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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How many squads would make it to the final table right now?

I don't think there is that many more...


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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:25 pm 
Master of the Order
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Cybit wrote:
True, keeping a BG next to all the targets would keep him safe a little while.

But I'd think an Ozzel variant would severely outactivate, to the point where you should be able to run in within 8, then swap out for LV, spend for speed, sweep the BG and target at the end of the round. At this point, it'll all depend on the players involved, map, etc... Regionals have shown to me (IMO) that player skill > GOWK, even between two closely matched players, the better player still wins, even if its GOWK vs not GOWK hate (but has 20 to 30 auto damage a round).

The two times I played, first time he had the BG next to R2, Dash, and GOWK, so ran up 28, won init, blew Rex up, got hit for like 40 from Dash, and swapped out. Second time, I spent for speed (he was 20 away), swept the BG (killing BG) and Dash, then proceeded to win init, kill dash and hide until swap.

Man, if they had just given LV Knight Speed or Master Speed....mmmmm....

Man, this is what happens when they don't give us more JA previews...yeesh...


It really depends on what variant you're playing against, IMO. The Ozzel variant can be slightly stronger in some senses, but oftentimes, the 1 activation hurts you more than it helps. Plus, you're looking at 10 activations, for most of the Ozzel variants, at a maximum, and that will REALLY struggle if you face any Dodonna builds. Again, it comes down to not just what beats GOWK, but what can handle the field. Right now, the GOWK/anti-GOWK field includes Rebel Push squads with Dodonna. The ability to activate two pieces and swap mid-round is the only way that B&B squads can compete with Rebel Push squads. Ozzel is too much of a hindrance in those builds.

And if you don't have Ozzel, you'll find it extremely difficult to get those 'run up at the end of a round and sweep' types of moves off against most good GOWK players. In the meantime, you have to deal with door control issues (especially if you lose map), and Rex/Dash shooting your swap fodder/door control in those first few rounds. Vader needs, at a minimum, 4 Force Points in order to pull off a full set of attacks, which means you can attack in Round 2 at the earliest, but that leaves no FPs for re-rolling Dark Armor.

Yes, it's a good counter. It's one of the reasons why B&B has been settled on as a decent counter. It's particularly effective against the Rex/Dash builds. But again, it really struggles against the JWM/Dash or JWM/JWM builds, IMO, and the Ozzel variants struggle against the Rebel squads. So, that's where the balance comes into play.

The sad thing about the meta is that there are San Hill squads, and NR squads that would also help to keep B&B somewhat in check, but they can't compete with GOWK, so they are left completely out in the cold. :(

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