When the post they ignored has been posted multiple times in the very thread the guy is posting in, then I think it's not an unfair expectation to ask that they are at least familiar with the concept.

As far as "voting" goes, I don't really think Dean's intention was to take a vote and make his decision based on the outcome of the public vote. If he were so doing, I suspect he would have formed a "commitee" that was forced to look into it in depth before voting. Blind internet polls are merely there for informational reasons and raising awareness.

Voting allows anyone to participate and have a voice, even if it's an ignorant voice. Actually making a decision to ban a piece, however, requires a much more intimate knowledge of the issues at hand.

I am not going to try and guess at a number of people who are so informed, but let's say it's something like 10% of the posters on these boards.

As should be clear from these threads, and those like it in the past (think initiative change and prior to that, the map list change) and there were many people who consistently said, "Leave it alone" etc. Many people said things like, "I think Mustafar is fine" even after Gencon 07, based on their experiences locally. There are plenty of people who still don't use the new init rule, or going back even farther, Gambit.

In the end, you are never going to convince everyone that a change needs to occur, but you still want to be able to say that you gave it your best effort. This thread is such an effort. I share Dean's expression of exasperation at people who post in a thread without reading even that thread (or at least skimming it). I don't have a problem with the "I don't know if this has been asked before and I don't want to read 10+ pages" type stuff. But the guys who come on with an over the top opinion, call everyone who opposes them idiots, extremists, whiners, etc and then fail to even understand how the rules work.

I fully recognize that the majority of players are not familiar with top level play, and will never be. But I also find it egotistical that those players think it's perfectly acceptable then, to tell me I am wrong about an opinion on the effect of a given piece in top level DCI play, when they don't even play it. And certainly, the majority of casual players are not like that obviously.

Top level play is where this issue primarily exists. I would argue that it exists elsewhere as well, but it's easier to mask. And I don't care to quality those who can speak on the issue (so don't take that from my post). What I have tried to do, is to educate people on the problems this piece has, will have, and will create for the competitive game. I fully well understood from day 1 that many people would not see it.

So to summarize, this "vote" is an educational process and a discussion. I suspect Dean was curious to see where the community was at the point he made this thread more than anything else. I know he wasn't intending it to be the "answer" on whether or not we try to ban this mini.

My ultimate hope of this process, is that we convince enough people that the majority are not upset about it when/if it happens. I know I can't expect everyone to agree with me on it, but I do feel like I have made a pretty solid effort to convince as many as I can.

Well, I don't play DCI (although I'd love to try sometime, but being stuck in the boondocks will do that to you) and I was a huge advocate of the change in SSM (to all attacks)- and I can say that if I were to play DCI, I would not want to play with or against GOWK.

I've been able to playtest on my own and I think GOWK can be fun (in non-competitive games) when you put together a squad that pre-GOWK had no business being a squad and go toe-to-toe with someone. Other than that, while I'm a huge Obi fan, and I actually love the piece, it is VERY, VERY clear that he breaks the game.

I do not think "we should wait for a counter CE or ability" because that will in all likelyhood break the game in the other direction, which is also not good for the game.

Ban GOWK from DCI and people at home can use him how they want. GOWK hasn't taken the fun out of the game for me, but I can see how he would take the fun out of the game for me if I were trying to win a timed game for money/prizes, etc.

Just my semi-informed opinion... (can I be in the 20% of semi-informed people?)

I voted no. I do think that he should be banned as is now though. I voted no cause I wasnt completly convinced. but I played against him in our tournaments practice for reginals and realize he needs to be banned. He avoided 100 damage and that was just against my vong without his re rolling ability. I still think Mettle and/or Master of the Force should be removed and then he would be ok though.

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Well said. My question, though is this - if the majority of people posting are merely casual players, why would they be upset if GOWK is banned in DCI legal tournaments? It doesn't effect them. They can still use him in their casual games.

I only play in a couple DCI games a year, mostly on Vassal. But I could still use GOWK if I wanted to for fun games. Funny note - when I play with my daughter, I let her use GOWK and I use a Tier 1 squad. She whoops me most of the time. She's 7 years old, but a brilliant 7 year old. I shudder to think what a top player would do to me with a GOWK squad.

It might have been a good idea to post a second poll asking if the person plays DCI or casual. Or something like that.

Speak for yourself. I'm firmly against SSM's very existence as an ability. I believe it's far too powerful given the game's mechanics, and far too easy to break.

That being said, I'm aware the problem is GOWK as a whole, not SSM specifically. So if it were to show up on another piece without Mettle/FR/CE, I wouldn't be immediately against it. Very suspicious of the piece, maybe, but not calling for an immediate ban.

Also, I've heard several people say it counters mobile/twin shooters. How, exactly? It just makes Rex and Dash (the best of the mobile/twinners) even better!

GOWK makes Rex/Dash better, but mostly because of his CE. Well, he doesn't really do anything for Rex I guess. It's just the fact that GOWK and Rex are in the same faction, thus can be on the same squad. It has an effect of making Rex better because it makes opponents have to make tough decisions about whether they try to go after Rex or go after GOWK instead.

SSM in general has the effect of being a counter to Mobile/Double/Twin attackers, because they are no longer guaranteed to do ANY damage at all. I played a game last night where my opponent's Rex shot at my GOWK, in cover, 4 times, and he had a Czerka within 6 as well. He missed 1 attack, and I made my SSM saves for the other 3 shots, AND made my Jolt saves. It cost me 2 FPs, but for any other piece, I probably would've ended up activated, or at the very least, taking 60 damage in order to remain unactivated. I think that's what some of the other guys mean when they say that it's a nice Quad-attacker counter.

On the other hand...same game last night, my opponent rolled a 20 with Boba BH on R2-Astromech at the beginning of the game, and then another 20 on GOWK towards the very end, lol.

I still don't see it. Basically, everyone but the Republic gets to use GMA/Twin attackers. That's not discouraging their use; just limiting one of the most powerful combos in the game to one faction and one squad.

Well, yes, in the current situation, that's how it goes. I think if SSM appeared in some other faction, then it might make a difference. But you're right. At this point, it serves to boost two of the best GMA/Double/Twin pieces that are out there. If it was a piece in, say, the Rebels or OR, or even NR, that just had SSM, but didn't have the CE or the Mettle/MOTF stuff, then it might have worked better as a counter without boosting them as well.

Waiting on the last 7 card stats before I vote.

As of right now I'm leaning in the ban direction.

And since if it happens it will end up happening after JA is released I'm OK with that.

Still undecided.

Well, I like most, am still waiting the results of the last few tournys. All the regionals seem to be doing so far is proving that GOWK is definately annoying and boring as his squads and the anti GOWK squads show up. But unstoppable? Unbeatable? It is looking to me like he is in the category of Boba BH at this point. Different yes, but worse??? The regionals seem to be making a case more for Boba than GOWK . I also expected to see more Rex/Dash combos though the JWM is no slouch either. It is looking more and more like tempo control is hurting GOWK. If Republic had access to a San, Ozzel, Dodonna, type then I could see GOWK being way worse then he is.

I went with "no" for the ban because GOWK can be a pain to deal with, he's not impossible to deal with. If anything, he's changed the game in the aspects that he's getting people to try different builds & he's an easily accessible piece that anyone can get. But I think that if he were a VR from a set that was hard to come by like Boba, BH, I think that everyone would have an entirely different view on the matter.

I dont think the ban was ever about that he was impossible to deal with. It comes about from the fact he is way overpowered and unbalanced.

Can Gowk be beaten sure he can. Is he over the top in power sure he is. I think people tend to lose focus on in the Gowk ban or not thing is what he does to the entire game.

Anyone notice this?

I think Gowk has performed exactly how I thought he would in the regionals. I dont think a 1-4 performance by a 10 year old shows him to be fine. I have a 10 year old and he is smart but I would not expect him to do well against a bunch of adults in a regional because he just does not get all the fine points of movement and placement that happen in the game.

Here is some of the things I have noticed that Gowk has done.

He has a tremendous record. Unfortunately for a lot of people it seems for them to think his power is a problem he would need to go undefeated in all Regionals and that is including Gowk vs Gowk matchups. This is impossible but it seems to be the bar some people have set for him.

I have noticed some of the old stand by type squads have one nothing..... anyone notice the absence of San Hill?

I can agree if Gowk won every Regional this would be an easy decision. But I think people are missing a crazy win/loss record that one piece has achieved. Just because he has lost games he must be easy now. I just dont follow this logic.

I originally voted no. But after I played a few games against GOWK, he just avoids way too much damage, both games I played against him, he avoided over 200 damage. He's just too good for his cost IMO. I would definitely like to see him banned. Soresu with Motf2, and mettle(especially since it stacks) is just too powerful on a 55 point figure IMO.

I voted no, because the Soresu style is a defensive lightsaber style and also GOWK was introduced in a starter set. The starter sets are the key to building the gamer base, if you will. I may be wrong, but WotC has never banned a piece (aside from Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter for Dynamic Dou matches).

But I take it that is not the issue here. In my opinion, the underlying issue is the MotF2/Mettle combo. As all of you know, with Master of the Force 2 and Mettle, GOWK only needs to roll a 7; if he screws that up, and rerolls, it goes down to 3. That's where the debate is -- the Mettle issue. So why not change Mettle to "locking" Mettle at a +4 instead of "deleting" the whole piece from the game.

We'll see what happens when the time comes.

That is the thing that does not make sence. The whole metal stacking.

I don't get it! Metal stacking?

Sarcasm is a violation of the CoC and your post is off-topic, which means you are being disruptive. Prepare for your 24-hour ban sir.

I'm sorry, I can't find any Ban Deodorant that works for 24 hours???

I'd also prefer an errata (hell, I dare you to find someone who wouldn't), but it's not really an option. Rob has already said that he won't use Errata to balance things out (or at least, that's what I've heard).

Also, have you seen how many times GOWK actually needs to roll the one save a second time? Changing Mettle really doesn't do much at all, unfortunately. Removing Mettle altogether drops his chances at avoiding all damage from 98% to 93% (from memory, I don't have the math handy). The problem is really SSM + MOTF2.