billiv15 was using your post as an example to make the counter point to a common mistake, so there's really no need to make this personal. Let me try to rephrase what he said.

It's not that GOWK is unbeatable. In a game with dice, nothing is unbeatable. It's that the only thing that really stands a better than 30% win chance is another GOWK squad or a hate/counter squad. GOWK squads have a 50% or better chance against their own counters. Thus, the only smart option is GOWK.

Secondly, you're right. GOWK's support does do a heck load of the work. It's been said before that GOWK alone isn't broken. But after you combine GOWK and support we get a huge problem. Part of the equation is causing the problem, so is it GOWK or the support?

The answer is GOWK, so why ban 3 or 4 support pieces when banning GOWK will achieve the same result?

I've changed my mind.

I'd like him banned.

Mainly because i don't particularly enjoy the animosity and the general negativity this piece has brought to the game.

My whole side to this has been that i believe the game design has a plan. I may not agree with it but i've enjoyed the game till this point even with Metas being equally restrictive in the past. A future game where force powers and DD are requirements sounds fun but i have no idea if this is the way the game is going, it just has to be if Soresu Mastery is to be contained.

However, this piece has caused a witch hunt and together with other complaints the community feeling on the boards is just strained.

Its not a good place for the game to be, particularly with a game that hasn't ever really had a comparably strong competitive baseand has mainly survived due to the community and the ever present love of star wars.

My vote goes for yes. The fact of him being Errata'd to lose MotF2 and Mettle is unlikely and a lengthy process. This way solves the problem fast and effectively. If somewhere down the line we want to bring it up we always can. As many people have said, when 1 piece is making the game stale and boring, just get rid of him and bring the game into greatness. I understand some people are not a fan of the whole banning perspective, but this is a very isolated case, and nobody is intending to just ban any piece that irks them.

So do I Deri. And I agree with you on why this piece was made. It concerns me though, for 2 reasons.

1. It means Rob is not going to back off of design for Greater Mobile Twin. It quickly has become about who rolls attack dice the greatest number of times during the game with the fewest activations possible. Most GMA figs also have Evade, which just makes it worse IMO. I'm very concerned about what the game will look like at the end of the year on this path.

2. Rob overshot the target in looking for an answer. GOWK ended up not just being a counter, but a gatekeeper, and one that is head and shoulders above any gate keeper we have seen before. There were lesser solutions to the GMA/Evade/Twin development, but we got this instead.



Nothing should be a requirement in this game. It stops being a game when that happens.



I agree. I'm not sure that banning GOWK will solve the long-term problems, but it can't hurt.

We do need a counter to GMA/Evade/Twin, though. It is out of hand.

I'm slightly behind with this thread (was busy over the weekend), but I thought it was worth responding to at least this one point.



Well, first of all, I did not beat a "large amount of competition". I beat 4 people total, 3 other squads, plus 1 GOWK squad. Out of those 4 people, one of them was one of the younger kids at the LGS, and he was playing a Rebel Commando squad. I had absolutely no trouble with it all. The game against Lackey was tough, but he made a major mistake. In addition, I don't believe his squad is one that could consistently compete with the GOWK/anti-GOWK meta. The third player was one of our top local players, but he was running a squad that he threw together 5 minutes before we started playing, he didn't play it very well, and I pretty much walked all over him.

And then finally, yeah, I beat the GOWK squad. But it was ONLY because I won the critical initiative. On top of the fact that it was a sub-par GOWK squad with Dash/Anakin. If it had been Rex/Dash, or even the Dash/JWM, it would've been a FAR different game.

And to add to all of this, was doing some play-testing with StriderRe80 on Saturday night. One of the telling things that happened was when I player the Vong squad that Billiv15 has posted a couple times, and Strider was playing GOWK/JWM/Dash. The game came down to 1 dice roll. Dash had 20 HP left, and I had to kill him in order to get enough points to keep the lead. The only thing I could do to try and kill him was to have Yomin Carr do a Spit Poison 20. Came down to 50/50 chance. And he made the save, so Vong lost. And again, I believe that is a match-up that is actually somewhat in favor of the Vong squad, as I think the Rex/Dash matchup is far tougher for the Vong to defeat. Oh, side note, that game went about 5 rounds when time was up, and I had done a whopping total of 20 damage to GOWK by that point with 1 Spit Poison attack. Strider did a fine job of forcing me to deal with other threats, and spread the damage around, causing me to lose two JHs in exchange for his JWM and Human Bodyguard.

GOWK vs. GOWK is like watching paint dry.

It's on this same thought that I cast my vote.


P.S. I still hate GOWK, and will not stoop to the level of playing him Anywhere.

This exact sentiment is the one that I can't understand, and I can only assume is because the people who have this particular opinion, don't play in high-competitive environments on a regular basis.

Well of course if you're never going to play him, then you won't see a problem in him existing in the meta. But if you're also never going to play him, then why vote "no" on the question of banning him? It apparently is going to make no difference to you whatsoever. You're voting no just on the principal of it? Scientists originally voted "no" on the idea of the earth being round, but they were proven wrong eventually. I'm not saying this situation is necessarily of similar magnitude, but I think the analogy works just the same.

I use to feel this same way. And I have changed my view. When all you face is gowk and you loss all the time you will change your minds or quit playing. Which is better? THe arguments havebeen made at this poitn there is nothing left to say about it really. Gowk and an optimal build for his support is dominating 80% of the time. And the 80% is from my own playtesting and experince. And that is agianst Gowk hate only. I have yet to try standard tactics because I know what will happen there already

LOL

I have to agree. Bill and I were on the phone today talking about it. The funny thing is after the regionals in which I fully expect Gowk to make a huge dent in, everyone will explain away his presence.

We have already seen that with the Regional in Texas. There were 4 Gowk squads in tournament. 3 of the 4 took the top 6 spots. First thing said was see he is not that bad.

But if you can find me another piece or squad that placed in 50% of the top 6 (or top 4 ) if you want to shrink it I will gladly tell you I am wrong.

25% of the squads were built around Gowk. The other 75% were geared to deal with him. People dont see a problem?!?!??

After JA... OR and Sith could be in that national Meta and make an appearance at Gencon.... But do you believe that if Gowk is still in play as he stands that will happen. Not in a large percentage. People will be playing for a Championship that involves some decent prizes. If it isnt happening for a badge why would it for prizes worth apporx $1000-1500.

The one squad that finished 12th that played Gowk..... it ended up there because it was stated the player had no door control. What place would he have come in without Gowk and no door control. I am guessing dead last.

I just dont see the argument. Especially if you dont play DCI or competitive..... IF folks want Gowk vs anti gowk to be all that Star Wars miniatures is about then I guess they can have this game. If Gowk stays as is I will never buy a case again. I will just buy the pieces I want because all I will ever need is that $14 starter to be competitive and another $6 - 25 in minis to round it out. If that is where people want this game.... man that is boring.

I have already stated this before and I really mean it, if Gowk is not banned (with the expectation after the ban that Rob look at fixing him or leaving him banned)then I will literally quit playing DCI.... If that happens I will more than likely quit the game. I can just go buy myself a chess set and get the same game as a meta with Gowk in it.

I really wish it had not come to this.... but really one piece should never define an entire game in it competitive form. After all the folks on wizards that called for Boba BH and the JWM to be banned I am shocked nobody else can see the math and figure it out.

I also love the Luke GM argument. Well Luke will nerf Gowk..... yes he may kill him but who saves Luke from the rest of Gowk's squad? just cannot see that in the 150 even with Leia JK.... 5 activations is the most that squad can muster. I dont see how you can realistically keep the mouse droids alive long enough to make Leia effective..... once they are gone she need to be near Luke and she cannot keep herself alive very well.

I love the Leia piece but personally think she is more dangerous with some of the new Vong (with affinity ) and Shado together.... than with Luke alone.

I agree 100%, Lobo.

@LukeHatesThrawn, you and I are probably in the same boat in that we won't ever play him (hell, I don't Republic at all), and I feel I can safely assume you don't verse him very often at all. I haven't since my friends and I implemented a pseudo-house ban. I haven't played DCI since my local LGS closed. Thus, a ban probably wouldn't affect either of us.

But that doesn't mean I don't see a problem when I see one, and I find it hard to believe you can't, either.

I've had enough bad experiences and done enough testing on GOWK to know he's broken. I know he made playing with my friends about as exciting as watching grass grow, so I can only imagine what he's done to the larger meta. I voted yes for two reasons: 1, I'd like to be able to attend a tournament (if one shows up near me) and not risk my sanity in a day of versing GOWK squad after GOWK squad, and 2, I'd like to know that my friends and I are playing by official rules when we leave GOWK in the 'never play again' box.

As for not banning him for the principle of it: banning pieces is just a part of any collectable game. No matter how good the game is, eventually the designers will stuff up and let a broken piece slip through the cracks. They're only human, they can't be perfect, and thus the game can't be perfect either. This was bound to happen sooner or later; now it has, and GOWK must go if the national meta is to be more interesting than Broken Squad vs. Hate Squad vs. Squads Aiming For Point Win.

This is along the same line as what I was saying earlier. Take LHT's comment, for example. He won't "stoop to the level of playing" GOWK, but he doesn't mind if other people are allowed to. HAHAHA

I'm not trying to sound offensive but that is a self-defeating philosophy. And one that I cannot fathom.

If you (generic you) think the piece is a problem to the point that you refuse to play it, why would you oppose it being banned for the health of the national-level game?

Dean nailed it. I lol'd as I read the Texas report. I anticipated what would be said. I promise you the regionals that follow will be tougher and more GOWK centered than the Texas one was (I can already assure you that people are building and testing the squad that won, you better be ready to deal with it regardless of which regional you attend), and the guy who gets the badge at every one of those will either have one of the top GOWK squads or figured out the perfect anti-GOWK. But hey, it won't matter to most people if the overall field at all of those is only 25-30% GOWK. Sheesh.

What struck me about the reaction to the regional, was that the squad choices and placement pretty much mirrored exactly what I predicted it would, months ago. I don't remember anyone arguing then that if my predictions were in fact true, that it would not show that GOWK deserved to be banned. All people did was argue that my predictions would not be true, that the players would "solve it" or that JA would "save us", etc.

So to those still on the fence, or on the no ban side, what would it take for you to be convinced? What regional results are you requiring we see to make a move? (And I am serious in asking this, not just being rhetorical).

I do not remember exactly how I broke down the numbers months ago, but it was something along the lines of:

GOWK 25-35%
Anti-GOWK 25-35%
Other good stuff 25-35%
Poor squads 25-35%

I predicted GOWK would win it, and take about 50% of the top spots.

I also said GOWK would take somewhere between 40-60% of the top spots. In particular, I remember saying (about Gencon) that GOWK would take 4-6 of the top 8, and 2-4 would be the others (most likely no true Anti-GOWK in the top 8).

So what did we see at Texas?
GOWK 25% of the field.
Anti-GOWK 50%
Other good 15%
Bad 10%

GOWK won it. GOWK took 50% of the top spots. 2/4 and 3/6. The anti-GOWK couldn't pull it off consistently, and that the top players would run GOWK.

I predict after seeing it happen once, the top players at the other regionals are more likely to run GOWK going forward.

So to those who say no, what happens when the regional results look like this (my predictions).

Regional A - GOWK wins, 50% of the top (in the books)
Regional B - GOWK wins both, 50% of the top (there are two this Sat if you count Wisconsin's unofficial one)
Regional C - GOWK wins, 50% of the top

so on and so on.

Are you going to admit we were right all along? Or are you going to continue this dismissal based on the top players winning regionals with GOWK?

Yep, Bill I remember you saying something like that.

To once again use a tired Magic example, after a major Pro Tour, WotC publishes online articles with deck lists, and guess what happens at the next Friday Night Magic/local tournament.

People carbon copy the winning decks and crack some skulls with them. Then the people that got beat go out and either build the deck they lost to or a direct counter to it. Magic is full of "big fish" mentalities, unfortunately. Not everyone, but just enough to hinder the game from being fun. A typical "big fish" in Magic only has fun when he (I have never met a "she" who is a big fish) is winning with the top net deck. He is almost always smug, a sore winner, with no level of modesty or courtesy.

I side-tracked into a recent memory which has nothing to do with this, so let me just stop there.

What I was saying is that the same thing that happens after a Magic PT is going to happen with the regionals. Count on it.

Pipe dreaming, ahh it is so relaxing...

Of course I am in favor of banning him and now after seeing this I can say I have a good shot with winning the reginal at cincy. I know I am I am pretty sure Aaron is maybe creehan and since boris is coming he might make the statement and run him as well. After running him I have become comfortable with him and feel I have a decent shot at it and if I do win that should hopefully call for a ban because I know I am not the best yet and it will take me awhile to get their. Aaron even said he was a little worried about me becasue I am one who can surprise you form time to time along with Chris. I Liked that

Ok all I play is DCI Tournaments and some Vassal, I will admit that at my LGS nobody has played GOWK since the SSM errata. @ Boris, I consider using GWOK to be a less Sportsman like way of plaing, I won't play him but since not everyone is a good sport than you will see GOWK played. JA will nerf him a fair amount with more of direct damage FP. My opinion could change when I face him more in DCI play.

OK then, it sounds more like your store has a "gentlemen's agreement" to not play GOWK, which is what we're planning to institute at our LGS as soon as the Regionals are over. But my point still stands. Just because you aren't planning to play him, and your other local players aren't playing him, doesn't mean there isn't a problem still. The "gentlemen's agreement" may work at the local LGS, but it won't work at GenCon, and it doesn't necessarily work at a lot of other LGSs. What happens when someone is in from out of town and wants to play with you guys, but all he brought with him was a GOWK squad? Do you tell him he can't play?

And to say that JA will nerf him a fair amount more means that you haven't been following all the other discussions. We haven't seen ANYTHING new that will actually cause a significant shift away from GOWK. Plageius' Corruption abilities will be thwarted by Ugnaughts and Mouse Droids. Same thing with most of the Force Push/Lightning pieces. To top it all off, ALL of the new pieces with 'Direct Damage' abilities are pretty fragile vs. shooters, with Kol being probably the only exception because of his access to Evade through Wedge. So sure, there might be some direct damage to deal with GOWK one on one. But nothing we've seen so far can handle GOWK's support.

And so perpetuates the argument several of us have been making all along. You either build your squad to beat GOWK, or you build it to beat GOWK's support. But you can't really build for both. And if you can't build for both, then whichever side of it you're weak against is going to cause you to lose....consistently.

Then you have 0 experience with which to make a judgment. Which was of course, Boris' point. It always amazes me at the amount of ignorant people who think their opinion is important, just because they decided one day to have one. And by ignorant, I mean the literal definition, "lack of knowledge about the subject" so don't go getting all offended by it. I am ashamed to take an opinion on a subject with which I have basically 0 information. I most certainly wouldn't tell others, who clearly have superior knowledge about the subject at hand that my opinion is the equal of theirs, as so many people love to do on the message boards.

http://www.swmgamers.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.28
Read it, learn it, deal with it. Then come back here and make this insult. I don't care what you think of me, you don't have a right to make this claim. If I chose to use legal pieces, I am not a bad sport. The actual reality here is that you are suffering under a self delusion that the pieces my opponent chose, some how reflect on their person, their understanding of fair play, and their respect for their opponents. That is absolutely asinine. In no way are opponent's required to play by your made up rules. And you do not get to call them "bad sports" for not doing so.

Wanna bet? I don't think that is true of all, and clearly comes from your lack of experience with the piece in DCI play. It doesn't do a whole heck of a lot in actuality.

Perhaps, but I would stop calling others bad sports, for using a legal piece, that you are completely ignorant of what it even does. Talk about egotism.

wow Aaron you must have been drinking a Dr Pepper or reading my mind!!!!!!

another thing is.... if you tell someone at a DCI event they cannot play Gowk... there is no way to enforce it. If the out-of-towner says he is playing him... well you are screwed. If you say no way then your venue can lose its ability to hold DCI events. So he will get to play the piece.

Folks I really want to reiterate. When I first saw Gowk as I got him a bit earlier than everyone else I emailed Rob and shared my concerns.... he never responded. So that leaves me with the feeling he made Gowk the way he wants him. He then errated Gowk to make sure we understood how he wants him. We dont have the let us errata him again option. It is not our call. What is availible is to ban him. That gets our message through to Rob. HEY YOU NEED TO FIX THIS!!! At that point he can either fix him or let the ban remain. But we have to get the message across to him.

Rob is not evil or anything guys but he is human. He has flaws in his playtesting.... only once has this surfaced into the game and created a problem and that is now. So I would say he is doing a great job. But if you guys have not learned anything over the years you have to know this.... It is up to us to protect this game!!!!

Wizards would be doing nothing for this game this year without us. They have said so. The mantle fell upon Jim's shoulders. When he cannot do it I will do it if need be. Guys the Regionals were not Wizards idea. I dont know how to tell you this in plainer terms. This is not something they dreamed up. It took us proving to them it could be done without effecting their budget. It was our idea.... our proposal. Gowk kind of falls into the same category. We have to show them what our problems with are. WE have to grab their attention. Then maybe they will fix him. Maybe they wont. But if nothing is done we are going to lose a ton of players period!!!!!!