Ok I need help. I am both a casual and a competetive player(and by competetive I mean fully enforced DCI floor rules). I understand everything you guys are saying about GOWK. I understand WOTCs issues concerning the floor rules and the problems to changing the documents. I constantly see games at my venues (even without GOWK) ended by someone who scored 2 rds of gambit and killed maybe an uggie. (not my games I am too reckless for that! ) What I don't get and need help with is how this is different than Boba BH? Boba BH has dominated the DCI games since the day he came out. I have never been to GENCON and don't have any stats, but would guess that if you looked at the last 2 GENCONs he would be the most played unique piece. In the last two and half years he has been legal the game has catered and adjusted to him. But now who would say he is dominant and feared? (OK he will always be feared when he rolls an attack ) How many GENCON championships does Boba have? I just am having a hard time understanding how GOWK just came out last fall and he needs to be banned. People played with and against Boba for so long that we all understand him now and beat him on a regular basis. Why don't you guys think GOWK could be the same way?

Well, my quick response is this:

Boba BH only has 1 GenCon win. And honestly, a lot of that came down to the two JWMs that Dr Divot had in his squad, not Boba. I know in my game against Divot in the semi-finals, his Boba died and it was one of the JWMs that landed the final blow on my Aurra.

Out of the top 8 in 2008, there were 3 Boba BH's (if I'm remembering it correctly). TINT's was the only one that advanced past the quarter-finals. And he ended up losing to bill in the final game.

Yes, Boba is a strong piece. But can he soak up 400+ damage like GOWK can? Boba has AT BEST, a 50/50 chance to avoid ranged damage, unless you're boosting him some other way. He has the same max damage output as GOWK: 40 dmg. Sure, Disintegration is a threat, but it's only a 5% chance per shot. He's not nearly strong enough though to survive like GOWK can.

Careful play allows you to get up close to Boba and then hit him for all your worth and bring him down. Mara Jedi can kill him in a single Cunning Assault and there is NOTHING Boba can do to stop it. If you try that same move on GOWK, he may take no damage at all!

Then look at it this way. At GenCon last year, I played Boba, and I only got 1 meaningful Disintegration ALL day long. Out of 8 games. Now, in the current meta, in those same 8 games, how many times do you think that GOWK being able to avoid massive amounts of damage would be a deciding factor? A lot more than 1 in 8 games, I can promise you that.

The question comes down to can you kill Boba BH?

back in the day I remember Bill and I both ran a Jango squad with 2 JWM's and Cpt Antilles. All you had to do to get rid of Boba BH was light saber assualt twice and he was dead. Boba is dealy because there is a 5% chance he can get the Big D. So if you factor in the 5% chance of rolling the Big D and actually be targetting or able to target your opponents best piece.... then he could change a game. Now there was the rest of the opponents squad to deal with so it was not always an auto win.


Now turn the numbers towards Obi. That 5% seems small doesnt it. Only a 5% chance of losing a fig. Well Gowk has close to a 97-98% chance of avoiding damage. So if you thought 5% was small chance on an autowin.... how do you like your chances of 3% of actually putting damage on Gowk.... that is not killing him just putting damage on him.

That is huge. I mean whooping huge. If you are playing against your opponent he basically has a nearly indestructable piece with one of the best Commander Effects in the game period. So the CE will be around for a while. In fact the CE will probably last longer than some of the squad.

So what is the counter to Gowk..... Direct Damage and overwhelming force. That is pretty much it.

So what are some Direct dmg

Flamethrower
Lightening whether sith or force.
Corruption.

All of these are older abilities and most people know how to avoid them by either placement or the ability to rid their opponent of these pieces prior to their use.

What if you don't want to play any of these direct damage pieces because you just dont like that type of stuff. Someone at your LGS loves Gowk. So every week you are basically facing single hardest piece to kill in the game with one of the best CE's in the game. So you lose everytime???? No you have to start countering him. Then that leaves you very liimited on your squad choices.

So the game becomes Gowk versus antigowk or the third option is you lose a whole lot.

Does that sound like the game we have had for 5 years prior. Does that sound fun?

It seems more like checkers where your big choice in the game is red or black.

I know some may dispute the math.... but I challenge others to do the math themselves or ask someone they know that can


when I observe Gowk personally avoid 800 damage in a game. Well that is too much.

The difference between Boba and GOWK is that a lesser experienced player can occasionally win with a lucky roll of 20. Disintegration is morale breaking, no doubt about it. I have been on both sides of the table with it. I have won games that I should have lost, and lost games I should have won. Boba's Disintegration on the first attack roll of the 2007 Championship at GenCon against a JWM set the entire tone for how my day went. It was awful. I probably would have lost anyway, but it was the worst possible way for me to start the event. If I hadn't been feeling so guilty about winning with the big D so frequently, I probably would have used it myself.

But better players will consistently beat it as long as that 20 doesn't come up against a key piece. The same cannot be said about GOWK. He is for all intents and purposes, invincible. It might be more apparent if SSM read like this:

Soresu Style Mastery (This character ignores all damage dealt by attacks against it. At the end of each round in which this character was attacked, this character loses 2 Force points, save 11 for 1 Force point)

Because that is really how it plays.

Well, I guess the issue is this. Say the entire community was 100% for banning him, what could really be done? Would you treat him like a map and make a special ruling for GENCON only? I don't see how getting a change in the floor rules is going to happen anytime soon.

The floor rules cover the banning of figures, cards and maps. That is where you find magic cards that are banned, D&D pieces that are banned.

So really for folks that don't play DCI....banning Gowk does not exist. It will only exist in the DCI floor rules.

I'm sorry, but it appears I skipped ahead. My question was being based on that we already had the conversation where we say DCI support for our game is dysfunctional and absent. I am saying, for the DCI players, what can be done given that a change in the floor rules won't happen anytime soon even if we have 100% community support?

A floor rules update is just around the corner actually.

Okay, I change my answer. Ban him. From a game aspect, I don't have the experience. I have a great LGS, where I haven't seen him played, so banning will make little difference. My ideas for him are bound to have some imperceptible flaw, as they are designed on paper, and I can't playtest them. I do, however,know what he has done to the community. Squad ideas are getting stale, many threads are centred on GOWK, and opinions not against him are met with, what I see to be, hostility. He is breaking, not only our game, but our community as well, and that should be plenty enough to make people see he is bad.

First off I would like to say that I'm sorry if I offended anybody with my posts. Now after looking into the details I have Decided to change my vote to Undecided I feal that the greatist empact that GWOK has/will have is turning the community upside down. I guess I just am old fashiond with the Idea that if you make something you shouldn't turn around and trash it. If WotC is going to make a mini, they shouldn't ban it. because then it's a waste and they could have used the slot for somebody else. At my LGS nobody made any "Gentleman's agreement" it's just that nobody has played him, at some point soon somebody at my LGS will play him most likely they will not be from out of town. I agree with the Truth now, The truth that GOWK is broken. Maybe GaW will do something about it.

Just so you know I'm not Anti Bill, Anti Dean, Anti Aaron, or Anti Boris (sorry I forget your name)

I just want to someday be as good as you guys are.

Just because you disagree does not mean you are anti anything. It does take time for people to see some things. I know that when this was first brought up and changed it was a 200 point night at my LGS and Aaron did run GOWK. He has a close match with one of our up and comers and he thought that GOWK was not a problem. I think it was not to long till he changed his mind. I was also did not want to ban him and even butted heads with Bill. Of course he told me to read the dang thread and do more play testing but I think he had a bad day It was not till recently I have said to ban him. I also encourage you to come on to vassel and play someone with GOWK that will help you 2 fold. Show you how hard GOWK really is to beat and also help improve your own game I know it has mine.

Bill, Dean, and Aaron I can speak from experience will help you any way to help you get better. I have not talk to Boris (Dennis) personally but I am sure he is an ok guy as well. this whole ban GOWK thing as really flared some tempers and caused a lot of fights but WE are what make the game great and once in a while a peice does get though and is not good for hte game. I think it is GOWK

Well said Strider

Wow, I would say that is BIG news! Is "around the corner" before Gencon or are we playing the -Nickname and Dean are done submitting the changes and waiting for DCI to approve and announce- game?

Single greatest thing I have read all day! Sorry, Dennis, but this is misspelling at its best!!!

Now I know he won't be going to Gencon. 5 days of being called Denise...

I'm sorry to use your post like this, LHT, nothing personal. I just wish to make the opposing argument. I've heard a lot of people say that we should "wait for JA and GaW, it'll fix things!". My question is this: when does this argument stop? If JA doesn't fix the problem, a lot of people say wait for GaW. If GaW doesn't fix the problem, I'm 100% certain they'll say wait for Dark Times. If Dark Times doesn't fix the problem, they'll say wait for the next set.

At what point do we admit that we have a broken piece and decide to do something about it?



Again, LHT, just making the counter-argument. Not picking on you in any way.

WotC doesn't make broken minis on purpose. It would be stupid for them to do so, because then their product wouldn't sell as well because everyone will use the broken piece/card/unit/whatever and buy nothing else, others will quit the game after becoming bored, and others will be scared from joining the game after seeing the same decks/squads played again and again. However, the playtesting can't be perfect. Game design and playtesting are handled by humans, so there'll be a mistake sooner or later. It's unfortunate, but in collectable games it's a fact of life. I'd rather continue the game less one broken piece than lose the entire game (personally or altogether).

Oddly enough, I have seen guys spell the name Dennis with an e.

But yeah great something to look forward to at GenCon...

I guess it's better than the names I am usually called lol.

@LHT - I do not think you are "anti" (insert name of choice). I do think that you, like most people who oppose the ban, are thinking emotionally instead of rationally. I understand where you are coming from, I generally hate the idea of banning.

That said, I think there is some irony in the statement:



The same can be said for all the pieces that aren't competitive enough to be playable, but nobody ever really gripes about that.

welp their is me making myself look like an idiot again sorry DENNIS.

lol don't sweat it.