billiv15 wrote:
[Whoa, back up, this is not the certainty that you are claiming that you then base your entire post on. I completely disagree with that statement. The counter to GMA/Evade is already built right into it. Evade. In the 2008 Gencon meta, when I played Han Scoundrel against Boba BH (3 times I think) it was completely strategy that won those games. I often simply based figures with the snowspeeder, and fired away. That is a vastly better meta, without even considering the other squads that are and were viable that didn't rely on evade. You are quite simply oversimplifying to make a point that you clearly want to make regardless of any real evidence.
You've got we pegged for the wrong person here. If you read this post, and others I've made on the subject, you would be able to see that I don't like what I think GOWK is going to do in the long rung; OTOH, I also don't think he restricts the meta all that much (simply shifts it, to beat a dead horse).
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I am sorry, it wouldn't be just GMA/Evade in the meta anyways. I submit that you would see San Hill squads, NR without Wedge, Rebuplic melee swapping with Yodabuck and Rex instead of GOWK (which beats the crap out of most evading shooters), and let's not forget Sep droids, which were top tier at 150 until the change. The Lancer for example, cares very little for evade, and disruptive is generally only a minor problem for it in most cases. The JA melee pieces are significantly better than you are giving credit for, and there would be several of them in the new meta, that won't be until GOWK is banned.
You're making an argument against something that I didn't say. I said that the metagame would revolve around evade/twin/gma squads and the squads that beat them, not that it would "just be GMA/Evade." As for the JA pieces... again, you've got the wrong person here. If anything, I've had the most positive things to say about JA of anyone regularly posting on them. Seriously, feel free to check every single spoiler thread here or at WotC.
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Yeah and I don't think you have a clue either. You mentioned 3 whole squads..... Whoopie..... Let's look at them. Force push. Is it really as good as advertised in this meta? Nope. It's won two regionals, in the hands of the same player, who has been playing it for a while. He is also playing it very well, and I would argue, that James would be doing just as well with it minus GOWK. It's a tier 1.5 squad, but James plays it to Tier 1. You claim the meta would be all GMA/Evade if GOWK is gone, well guess what, Force push works just as well in that meta.
Well first off, you're wrong. The Colorado Regional was won by Force Push. Also, GOWK-centric squads are weaker against Force Push than a lot of shooter squads are for a number of reasons that I'm sure you know, especially in the case of the squads that seem to be the most popular GOWK builds.
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0 Vong have made the top 4 at any regional. Last year at Gencon, one Vong squad went 5-2, in the hands of DPR. DPR has not played his regional yet, I wouldn't be surprised to see him be the first top 4 with it. Nothing has changed here, and nothing will. Vong are melee, and they work equally well against GMA/Evade as they do against GOWK. It just takes a very good player to make it work well, and very flawless play. The new JA melee will keep Vong as a viable squad option locally for quite some time, I don't see how GOWK being banned changes their place one bit.
Well yeah, you just said the EXACT same thing that I said, so far as I can tell, with one exception. I don't think that Vong are made weaker simply by banning GOWK. Rather, I think they will be made weaker by the re-shifting of the meta that will occur if (and probably when) GOWK is banned. High damage twin attackers, even the ones with low attack values, generally cause serious problems for Vong squads. At the same time, those squads seem to have serious trouble with what GOWK brings to the table.
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Name em. I don't know what your thrawn squad is, so I can't comment on it. Direct damage is a good counter to evade, so saying it goes away is stupid.
Again, you're reading WAY too much into what I'm saying here. As for the squads, I've been posting them all over the boards for weeks.
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]That's because you made up your mind months ago, and refuse to actually look at the situation in any objective way. That's all well and good, but the facts are important to the rest of us. I've said it in many threads, you can't just look at the regional results as a true example of "top table" play. You have to take the top 4-8 from each of those, and put them in the same tournament. You have to have 3-4 players running GOWK flawlessly against flawless "counters", which we have not really seen much. You have to look at who is winning with force push, and how.
Yeah... and you made up your mind a long time ago about what I think, regardless of the fact that you apparently have it all wrong. I said, in the very post that you quoted, that I do not think that "[GOWK]'s good for the long-term health of the game." Did you miss that, or just ignore it?
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I mean come on, the guy in Cali won because he rolled 4 20s..... Sweet, I think I would now run Boba BH and Bothans and hope for the 20! That sounds like an awesome meta to me!!!!
Over-simplification and you know it, or at least you should. He listed out the 20's that he rolled, and only one was significant by your own standards. That one was also the only significant big D that I believe he rolled in the entire tourney.
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And in case you or anyone else decides to make the claim that I too made up my mind months ago, I admit it, I did. I also have done more math and more testing on this than anyone else that I know of, and I think my results speak for themselves. Am I biased? Sure I am. But not in the way that would allow you to dismiss my perspective easily. I actually really want melee to be competitive. I love running it. I love running Vong, I love running Jedi. My bias would tell me that GOWK is great! Yet I am here, ardently on the other side of it.
Let me spell it out for you, since you seemed to have completely overlooked the last part of my post: I want
everything to be competitive. I would love to see the top 16 squads at GC contain a melee-centric, a Vong, a DirectD squad or two, a couple of shooter squads, a Thrawn squad, a couple other classics, and a few squads nobody saw coming. I would LOVE to see that. However, I don't think that it's going to happen. I also don't think that banning GOWK is going to have a serious impact on the variety in the top 16. In fact, I would go so far as to say that 14/16 will be from 3 total factions with 4-5 squad archetypes. Furthermore, I would bet that Vong don't make the top table unless they're in a NR squad (one of the main 3 factions, along with Rebels, that I expect to see). Honestly, if that turns out to be the case, I have to ask how it's so very much better than what we have now.
And just to make my position clear, I'm leaning towards a ban still, though my reasons have shifted somewhat. But hey, like you said, you made up your mind months ago, so the fact that I'm saying this will probably just be ignored, anyways
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