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Should General Obi be Banned?
yes 45%  45%  [ 55 ]
no 45%  45%  [ 54 ]
not decided 10%  10%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 121

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 Post subject: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:36 pm 
The One True Sith Lord
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Ok guys you have seen how awesome and wide open JA can make things. You have also seen that there is no real answer to SSM. At this point here is the question in it simplest form

Ban Gowk

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 Post subject: Re: BAn Gowk or not a simple poll
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:47 pm 
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I'm undecided. I can understand why people really, really, really don't like him. I think it adds a big bump in constructive thinking squads, it's no more "I'm gonna use my usual and win as always" it's "well, crap. my usual doesn't work against GOWK so I have to try something new and learn new strategies". Part of me says "don't ban him" and part of me says "go on, give in to peer pressure and click 'yes', you know you want to" ;)


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 Post subject: Re: BAn Gowk or not a simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:22 am 
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Leaning toward yes but currently undecided. Have to wait and see what the rest of JA holds.

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 Post subject: Re: BAn Gowk or not a simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 4:54 am 
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I'm saying yes. We've seen over 50% of JA and it's just not cutting it. Direct damage is not the end all to GOWK, and the odds are that if we do see a counter in the remaining pieces it will only lend itself to one squad type. So that'd give us a whopping 3 squads to roll with. Ban him and it's obvious how wide open and competitive the meta can become, even with what little we've seen in JA.

Banning GOWK does not need to be permanent, but it does need to be done for the health of the game. Maps have dropped off and reappeared on the legal list once or twice. Maybe in a set or two there will be enough serious counters to him that will make him less dominate but still competitive and he can be removed from the ban list, but for now, especially for Gencon, I am pro ban.

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 Post subject: Re: BAn Gowk or not a simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:37 am 
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Dean, you and I have had enough discussions on this to know where I stand. For any game of the miniatures variety to always be thinking of one figure in particular before competetive squad construction occurs, you know there is a serious problem! GOWK is a fantastic figure, amazing sculpt, and great stats, but that one small ability of his makes him being DCI legal upsetting to me, and I know many others. To have to say, "Can this beat a GOWK squad?" anytime you are headed to play absolutely insane. Leaving him out of DCI Tournaments is the best course.

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 Post subject: Re: BAn Gowk or not a simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:06 am 
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I was on the fence, but seeing JA so far has pushed me over it. This set is the most diverse meta-wise that we have ever seen, if you remove GOWK; so far, almost every single piece revealed can see competetive play without GOWK being around. With him, we can pretty much ignore this set (except GOWK, he got some more support in this set).

So my answer is BAN


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 Post subject: Re: BAn Gowk or not a simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 6:49 am 
Mandalore
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Mabe they should of changed him after gencon?

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 Post subject: Re: BAn Gowk or not a simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:10 am 
Black Sun Thug
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I did the math last night, he can avoid 95.5% percent of attacks. Ban him.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:11 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Okay, I guess it's obvious what I'd say by now. Just imagine the game without GOWK!

I'll take a famous tune by John Lennon and re-apply it to GOWK (just sorta sing the tune as you read these lyrics):

Imagine there's no GOWK
It's easy if you try
No restricted meta
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Playing Star Wars min[is]

Imagine there's more options
It isn't hard to do
Creativity at Gencon
And variety too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

...Ooh, ooooh, ooh...

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday they'll ban him
And the game will be more fun

Imagine no restrictions
I wonder if you can
No need for Vong or Lightning
A wide-open meta
Imagine all the squad types
Squad building is fun again

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday they'll ban him
And the game will be more fun

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:19 am 
Master of the Order
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thereisnotry wrote:
Okay, I guess it's obvious what I'd say by now. Just imagine the game without GOWK!

I'll take a famous tune by John Lennon and re-apply it to GOWK (just sorta sing the tune as you read these lyrics):

<snipped>


Damn, where is the smiley holding up the bic lighter when I need it :P
That was good :D


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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 8:33 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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swinefeld wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Okay, I guess it's obvious what I'd say by now. Just imagine the game without GOWK!

I'll take a famous tune by John Lennon and re-apply it to GOWK (just sorta sing the tune as you read these lyrics):

<snipped>


Damn, where is the smiley holding up the bic lighter when I need it :P
That was good :D


Well, I copied it onto the GOWK Hypothetical thread at WotC. You'll find your bic-lighter-smiley there. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:15 am 
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well there was a 6 man vassal tournament last night it was a lot more fun without GOWK. BAN him.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 9:23 am 
Mandalore
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jonnyb815 wrote:
well there was a 6 man vassal tournament last night it was a lot more fun without GOWK. BAN him.


Not really, I got killed by the vong and got destroyed by the gungans. And my 2 wins were a bye and the guy had to leave.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:20 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Waiting for JA to finish before I go one way or the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:38 am 
Master of the Order
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I cast my vote.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 10:53 am 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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I was the second vote, behind Dean :)

I've been in the general sense, in favor of a ban since November when the question first arose. I tabled it when Nickname ruled SSM was melee only, but the moment Rob changed it, I was convinced would probably have to be banned. Nothing I have seen in JA comes close to knocking GOWK out, because he breaks the rules of the game too much. That is the biggest issue. Direct damage is great for the game in general, but its not the answer to GOWK. It only makes the game all direct damage vs GOWK. And even then, I am happy to show anyone on Vassal that direct damage squads can not win consistently enough against GOWK to make a difference, before we even consider the other squads that toast them outside of GOWK.

The meta would be wide open if GOWK is banned. I stand behind that statement, and while I am fine with the ban him and reconsider him at a later date when more figures are out, I strongly suggest that there will never be a situation where GOWK is good for the game. I've said that since day 1 as well. In a tournament game, you cannot have one figure that cannot be beat by the other 99% of the figures. Without a ban, it's GOWK on GOWK all over the top 8 at Gencon.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:01 am 
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I don't think it's as cut and dry as "Ban him or not".

I just don't think it is. I'm going to say my peace and although probably it looks like most of you disagree, I am firm in that no piece should be "banned".

The piece is the piece. "It is what it is."

Is the piece the right cost for what it does? Of course not.
Were there errors in the conception of it? Yes.

Have there been pieces before that have totally changed the Meta that were priced wrong? Definitely. (JWM comes to mind)

I know coming from me, the non-competitive guy this means nothing. I don't use him, don't play against him and don't play to win.

All of that said, the piece is the piece and you play the hand you are dealt with. Sometimes it's a lemon, sometimes it's rockets. In this case, yes, they may have made a serious error with GoWK that has changed everything.

So that pretty much means 2 choices:

#1. Play him. Duh.

#2. Build a squad to try and beat him (either by killing his support or out-pointing him).

I totally understand where you all are coming from him and why you feel the way you do. He upsets the balance. Now the "average joe" can beat the Top 5 players in the world just because of one piece, where as before, that Top 5 player is beating that #64,959 player 99/100 times.

I think the minute you start banning pieces, you start to change the philosphy about the game and what it means. Soon, all of a sudden a 7 point piece that can deal 50 damage is banned. Oh, look. A piece that can attack from 40 squares away - banned. Oh, Critical hits on 15's - banned! (You get the idea - not the best examples but even still).

Over the past 3 years we have seen a wealth of unexplainable point valued pieces. (Luke JM being 74 while Vader, JH is 75; Mace Windu, JM being 2 points MORE than Mace Windu; JWM at 26; etc.. etc.. etc...). Did we lobby to give Luke MOTF2? Grievous, JH didn't get Jedi Hunter I don't recall. We've also seen the creativity to see players step up to the plate to define a line of SWM generation with the first introduction of B & B and Dr. Divot out-thinking everyone by learning to win on Geonosis (oh and guess what after - I think we did ban that, ironically enough).

Sure you could argue that these wouldn't have upset the balance as much as GoWk has and you would be correct, but that isn't the point. The point is Kenobi is the piece that he is. Regardless if we agree what he SHOULD be, he is what he is. Does it make him easy to beat? No. Does it upset the balance? Yes. So what do you do? You deal with it. You find a way to win against him (or win with him) and if that means everyone at Gencon has GoWK, then so be it.

If I was in the top players in the world, I'd be revelling in the challenge of the up in difficulty versus the "average joe". Now is the time to show exactly why you all hold your places there. Don't let GoWk be the piece that makes you "ban" him. Deal with it. Check your win streaks at the door (and your egos) and deal with it. Find a way to win with/against him.

After all, it is a game.

So you go to Gencon, you put your chips (and GoWk) all in, and you let them fall where they may. Then, you SHOW the people who DESIGN the game, the design flaw and put it in their hands to over the course of the next year, fix it. (WITHOUT making another unstoppable piece).

If by next Gencon, they haven't then at least we've done all we can as a community and then, if nothing is changed and everything is as it now stands, then, by all means, ban him if you really feel there is no other viable option (and I will point out I still don't agree)

Those are my thoughts (and probably not yours).

Fool out.


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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 11:04 am 
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I chose ban him. He makes the game way too closed minded for my taste, I don't want to build squad thinking the whole time will this beat GOWK. My honest opinion is for the good o the game at this point he needs to be banned.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:10 pm 
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Fool wrote:
Have there been pieces before that have totally changed the Meta that were priced wrong? Definitely. (JWM comes to mind)


There are several things that are wrong with this comparison though. The JWM was admitted as being a slight mistake. But it was probably the difference between 26 points, and about 30 or so. Plus, the mistake was not admitted until some time later.

To top it all off, the JWM came out in June of 2006. No errata has ever been released for him. Has the JWM ever been a KEY piece of a squad enough to make it dominate a competition? No. It wasn't even very popular at GenCon 2006 from what I understand. We saw a lot of JWMs at GenCon in 2007, but out of the Top 8, there were two Han Scoundrel squads, a Luke's Landspeeder, my San Hill squad, and then 4 squads with JWMs. But those 4 JWM squads were not CENTERED around the JWM. Each of them had vastly different approaches. It could be argued that in Dr Divot's squad, Boba BH was the key and central piece. And I would argue that R2-Astromech was a more lynch-pin piece to that squad than GOWK.


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#1. Play him. Duh.

#2. Build a squad to try and beat him (either by killing his support or out-pointing him).


But see, this is the thing that irritates a lot of us SO much. GOWK causes about 700 pieces in the game to be unusable in the competitive scene. It's basically as bad as banning all those other pieces! Now sure, a lot of those may not be 'tournament worthy' pieces anyways, but you can be sure that without GOWK running around, that number is WAY smaller.

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I think the minute you start banning pieces, you start to change the philosphy about the game and what it means. Soon, all of a sudden a 7 point piece that can deal 50 damage is banned. Oh, look. A piece that can attack from 40 squares away - banned. Oh, Critical hits on 15's - banned! (You get the idea - not the best examples but even still).


Well, you gotta figure, Rob has designed 800+ pieces now, and he made a mistake with 1 of them. If we ever have any other pieces that disrupt the flow of the game this badly, I would guess we'll have another 800 good pieces to play with in the mean time.

Quote:
Over the past 3 years we have seen a wealth of unexplainable point valued pieces. (Luke JM being 74 while Vader, JH is 75; Mace Windu, JM being 2 points MORE than Mace Windu; JWM at 26; etc.. etc.. etc...). Did we lobby to give Luke MOTF2? Grievous, JH didn't get Jedi Hunter I don't recall.


People have lobbied to give MOTF 2 to Luke JM or give Jedi Hunter to Grievous JH for as long as I've been in the game! But has it accomplished anything? No. Rob has said, time and again, he will not use Errata to balance things. And the small cost difference between pieces like Mace Windu or Mace Windu JM are so small it's actually sort of tough to determine what would be a more appropriate thing to do. But we've seen test reports of games where someone treated GOWK as if he cost 55 points...more than DOUBLE!... and the GOWK squad STILL won the game! We're not talking the small differences we've seen with some pieces in history. It's completely off the charts in comparison.


Quote:
You find a way to win against him (or win with him) and if that means everyone at Gencon has GoWK, then so be it.


I think this is the biggest reason right here. It has nothing to do with winning against him or finding hate squads or any of that. GOWK is just plain boring. It takes no ingenuity to play the piece. You can make bizarrely ridiculous play errors and still win the game based on a couple of dice rolls. It's not that I'm worried about Joe Average beating me. I'm confident that if I'm playing GOWK, I can still win those games 99/100 times. I just don't want to spend 5 hours on Saturday at GenCon, playing 4 rounds in a row against a mirror squad. There's no enjoyment in that. And honestly, there's not much strategy either. It all comes down to who has the hottest dice.

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If by next Gencon, they haven't then at least we've done all we can as a community and then, if nothing is changed and everything is as it now stands, then, by all means, ban him if you really feel there is no other viable option (and I will point out I still don't agree)


And on most levels, I'd love to take this route. Let it stand for now, wait till after GenCon. Let that prove to the Design team that there is a problem.

However, there's something that makes me feel the other way, and it's an even stronger influence. There's a high school kid at the LGS, who's a good player now, and regularly comes in right behind the other top player in Cinci, and has actually taken 1st in tournaments now and then. He's becoming a better and better player. After only a couple weeks of playing GOWK under the new Errata, his comment was basically "What's the sense in playing, if I know I'm always going to lose to GOWK? It's not even worth playing." We play from week-to-week to enjoy the game. We don't play just to boost our rankings, or see who can get the most wins. We don't play to be cutthroat. But out of 10-15 people at an LGS, there's a good chance that at least 1 person will run GOWK from week to week, simply because he's a decent piece. Now, if you know there's that chance, and you want to have at least some chance at winning your games, you have to build at least something in your squad to help deal with. And when it comes to GOWK, the only things that can deal with him are SO limited, that now the entire night of gaming because stale and boring. Because you either end up playing the same thing every week, or you end up getting killed every week.

All it's going to serve to do is destroy gaming groups as people get bored or irritated. I would predict that most groups wouldn't survive long enough for Rob to design and distribute an acceptable counter. And of course, that's assuming that said counter was just a piece of equal insanity level, further complicating problems (i.e. knocks GOWK out of the meta, but becomes a problem in and of itself).

OK, I've gone on long enough. My vote, purely for the fun and health of the game, and having nothing to do with GenCon at all, honestly, is to ban him.

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 Post subject: Re: Ban GOWK or not? A simple poll
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:12 pm 
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Fool wrote:
I know coming from me, the non-competitive guy this means nothing. I don't use him, don't play against him and don't play to win.


If you don't use it and no one else you play with does either, and certainly if you don't play sanctioned events, banning the piece will have ZERO impact on how you play SWM. I don't think it's appropriate to tell people to accept GOWK "as is" when you don't have any real experience with it one way or the other.

Do I think GOWK should be banned from tournament play? Yes. Will I never use him again once he is? No.

Quote:
All of that said, the piece is the piece and you play the hand you are dealt with. Sometimes it's a lemon, sometimes it's rockets. In this case, yes, they may have made a serious error with GoWK that has changed everything.

So that pretty much means 2 choices:

#1. Play him. Duh.

#2. Build a squad to try and beat him (either by killing his support or out-pointing him).


If you as a self-described non-competitive player can recognize this fact, then I don't see how WotC (or Rob) can't. Furthermore, if you understand how the DCI operates regarding decisions for banning, then you understand that GOWK is probably going to be banned at some point. The game simply cannot survive a recreation of the rules mechanics and new character designs if everything has to be made with this piece in mind. And those pieces that still follow the original rules of the game will fall by the wayside.

Quote:
I totally understand where you all are coming from him and why you feel the way you do. He upsets the balance. Now the "average joe" can beat the Top 5 players in the world just because of one piece, where as before, that Top 5 player is beating that #64,959 player 99/100 times.


No, I think the top 5 players in the world will win WITH GOWK. That's not the issue. The issue is that GOWK discourages average players from using anything else, unless it's something built specifically to beat this piece. The only other piece that's come this close to being a problem is Boba Fett BH, but even then it's a 1 in 20 and sometimes good luck (or bad luck, if you're sitting on the opposite side of the table) can't be avoided.

Quote:
I think the minute you start banning pieces, you start to change the philosphy about the game and what it means.


I don't really understand this statement. GOWK changed the philosophy of the game, as I described in one of my final WotC board threads entitled "The End of Star Wars Miniatures," a commentary on how there are no new concepts in the game. Everything that comes out now has already been done, and how the only way to develop original ideas is to make stuff that overwhelms GOWK. If we take that route, then the game as we know it is dead and something else takes its place.

Quote:
Soon, all of a sudden a 7 point piece that can deal 50 damage is banned. Oh, look. A piece that can attack from 40 squares away - banned. Oh, Critical hits on 15's - banned! (You get the idea - not the best examples but even still).


Oh please. Don't be so dramatic. BTW, there's already a piece that can attack from 40 squares away (actually there are several). Its called "non-melee." Of course, you have to be playing on more than one map to attack from that far out, but it does exist.

Also, those concepts you suggest do not break the "walls" of the "house," meaning they adhere to standard concepts. This game is played, at its core, by moving specific distances across colorized feature squares of a map, and rolling a d20 to "attack" an enemy character. Attacks that hit deal damage, and when a character is defeated it is removed from the game.

GOWK breaks the basic concept of the game in a way that is unhealthy. Your post acknowledges all of that and yet you are okay with it? Of course, its important to go back to your first sentence and keep that in mind. You don't have to deal with it. It's not a problem for you. If it ever becomes a problem, you'd probably feel differently.

Quote:
If I was in the top players in the world, I'd be revelling in the challenge of the up in difficulty versus the "average joe". Now is the time to show exactly why you all hold your places there. Don't let GoWk be the piece that makes you "ban" him. Deal with it. Check your win streaks at the door (and your egos) and deal with it. Find a way to win with/against him.

After all, it is a game.


That's right. It's a game. And so is Magic, and so is DDM, and so is Dreamblade. All of those games have had varying degrees of success, but they also have one thing in common: they have elements that have been banned. Because it IS a game. It's supposed to be BALANCED and FUN. GOWK makes the tournament format not fun.

Quote:
Fool out.


Well I'll probably get accused of being "negative" or a "bully" or some other such nonsense, but I would prefer that over people reading your post and thinking you are making a lot of sense about the issue, because in truth your first statement sets the tone for and demonstrates the level of insight you have about this issue.

It'd be like me saying that since my town doesn't have a recycling center and I don't use that much plastic or paper, people everywhere else should just take their trash out the old-fashioned way: down to the landfill.

Or like me saying that even though I don't play major league baseball, I think a certain rule of the game should not be changed by the association.

In other words, I have no authority to speak about those issues, and you have none about GOWK. Sorry if that sounds harsh but it is the truth.

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