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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:43 pm 
Ugnaught Master!
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Congrats to you all! Let's show WotC and DCI that, even without their full backing, we've got this all under control!

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:15 am 
Master of the Order
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Cool beans! What's our first task, oh illustrious leader? ;)

And for my first question.....how would you like to set up things so that RAs at various LGS's are able to easily contact us if they have questions?

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:36 am 
Death Star Designers
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LoboStele wrote:
Cool beans! What's our first task, oh illustrious leader? ;)


I came here to ask that very question! ;)

LoboStele wrote:
And for my first question.....how would you like to set up things so that RAs at various LGS's are able to easily contact us if they have questions?


I've got some ideas about that, which I'll run by Dean once we get some of the particulars nailed down.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:27 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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LoboStele wrote:
Cool beans! What's our first task, oh illustrious leader? ;)

And for my first question.....how would you like to set up things so that RAs at various LGS's are able to easily contact us if they have questions?


I to am wondering about what our first task will be. Wouldn't PMs be the easiest way for folks to contact us? What about inter-committee communication?

Do we need test questions to reflect IE or have they already been made?

Dean - Thank you for allowing me to be part of this committee.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:16 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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dnemiller wrote:
First thing is we are going to need to have maybe a conference call via Skype or something.... I have some areas that we need to address.


Would a chat session someplace work, or would you rather actually talk through things instead of typing everything? Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:23 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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No reason not to skype. Everyone can download it, and they can type if they are too lazy to get a mic :)

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:26 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Send it my way with as many details as you can think of. Small card? Business card size? This week we are swamped at work, but it should slow down next week. I should be able to knock this out with out any problems, just will need some time.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:54 am 
Master of the Order
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Send that to me too Dean. I might be able to get one of the coworkers here help me design something. We might even be able to print it up for cheap. No promises, though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:12 am 
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Wow, thanks for selecting me. You can list my name next to a slash. That would be Cory. Just make sure times are equally fitting for us EST people. I haven't d/l skype yet so I have to have time to play with it. I don't have much knowledge on GenCon due to a lack of competitive play in the last year. The occasional tournament I can attend but the large scale events, I don't have access to.

But, I will do what I can when I can. Hopefully, that will be enough.


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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:32 am 
Death Star Designers
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Well something that I've been working on, as I discussed with a few people already, is an unofficial tournament organizers kit of sorts, in PDF format, for easy download. Part of my thinking is that not all TO's have a computer/laptop at their disposal when running games and I wanted to put something together that could be used for recording/tracking a tournament with a pencil and paper. If anyone wouldn't mind looking over what I've got for the tournament report/match list so far, and let me know if you think it's lacking anything/could be improved and let me know, I'd appreciate it.

You can find it right here

As it is right now, it's setup to accommodate 20 players and 4 rounds. I intend to make an additional match list for up to 10 players and 6 rounds as well... but I'm wondering if accommodating 20 players is a bit of overkill. The way I see it, if you have 20 people in your playgroup, someone should have access to a laptop, at least, and the TO should be able to run the tournaments using the DCI software. I know, however, that as soon as I make the decision to knock it down to 10 players (as an example) that someone will ask for a version that accommodates more. :?

Also, I wanted to put a single page guide with this document, explaining how to pair people off against one another, and how to determine placement in the event of a tie. So I tried it out this weekend and, while pairing people off against one another wasn't a problem, we ended up with a 3-way tie (3 players each having won 3 of 4 matches). So I used a sort of "strength of schedule" formula to determine placement. I assigned each person 1 point for each match won, then I chose each of the three tied players and came up with a score based on the players that they each faced. For example:

Player A - 3 wins - 3 points
Player B - 3 wins - 3 points
Player C - 3 wins - 3 points
Player D - 2 wins - 2 points
Player E - 1 wins - 1 points
Player F - 0 wins - 0 points

If player A faced off against players B, C, D, & E, player A would have a "strength of schedule" score of 9
If player B faced off against players A, C, D, & F, player B would have a "strength of schedule" score of 8
If player C faced off against players B, D, E, & F, player A would have a "strength of schedule" score of 6

Everyone was satisfied with those results, and placement was simple enough to determine. However, when I plugged the match results into the DCI software at home it gave a very different set of results. 1st place winded up in 3rd place while 2nd and 3rd place winded up in 1st and 2nd respectively.

I don't know what kind of voo-doo math the DCI software uses to determine placement, but my formula obviously isn't it. And you might have noticed that, had things gone slightly differently, we could still have ended up with two players tied for 1st place.

So any input that anyone is willing to give, in determining placement in the event of a tie, would also be very much appreciated.

Dean, since I'm home all day every day, and I can whip together forms/cards/posters with relative ease, feel free to send me what you've got as well and I'll see what I can throw together for you.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:42 am 
Master of the Order
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Dean, go ahead and send that Rules Card thing to me as well. I'm usually pretty good at putting together stuff like that.

Couple of quick questions, just for my own clarification on those:

1. Are these penalties specifically explained somewhere else, like in the DCI Floor Rules? Are they in the overall Floor Rules, because I don't recall seeing anything like these in the SWM specific ones. If these are defined somewhere, then most of the rest of my questions may have answers there.

2. What is a 'Lost Sideboard Miniature'? Is that like, losing one of your reinforcements?

3. What exactly is a 'Player Communication Violation'? Is that like where you don't properly tell your opponent what you're doing, or properly explain when you've used a certain Special Ability or something like that?

4. For 'Slow Play', is 3 warnings really the right thing? I mean, if someone has to be reminded three different times to play their game at a more normal pace, I would think that would eventually warrant a game loss, not just another warning. Or is this system set up so that if you get 3 warnings it's a '3 strikes you're out' kind of situation? I can't remember how the basic DCI Floor Rules address that.

I'm good for either Skype or chatting, or whatever. Set up a time, preferably any evening but Thursdays, and I should be able to work around it.

@ Nivauhc

The DCI software determines strength of schedule based on how many games your opponents won. Your formula seems like it would be close to the same, but it's hard to say. The DCI software calculates a percentage, and that percentage is simply Wins divided by Losses for ALL of your opponents. An easy way to see how this works is to look at the SOS difference between 1st and 2nd place. 1st place will typically have a lower SOS, though their win rating is higher. The people in 2nd and 3rd will usually have slightly higher SOS, usually because one or both of them lost to the 1st place player, who had a 100% win rate.

So, if you play 3 opponents in a tourney, and they go 3-0, 2-1, and 1-2, then you played opponents with Win/Loss percentages of 100%, 66%, and 33%, thus making your overall SOS a 66% (average of the three).

Also, if you have a 20 player tournament, you need 5 rounds to arrive at a single winner. 4 Rounds can handle a maximum of 16 people, so that's what I would set up your document for, a maximum of 16 people, and I think that should cover a large majority of LGS groups. The form you set up is really nice though! You could easily add another page with a 4-round bracket system to show who plays who each round. Might take more than 1 page though. I'll try to run through the bracketing break-down, but I think you could set it up for up to 16 people, and it would still work for any amount less than that. I'm not positive though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:14 am 
Master of the Order
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Something else that needs to be discussed and hasn't really is what constitutes an illegal map. I'm not talking about which maps are not legal, I'm talking about damaged maps.

One guy had a map that was very abused to the point it was ripped and there were sections along one of the end corners missing. I think the whole bottom corner going about 2 rows in had been ripped away from the map. No one ever complained during the Jedi Masters tournament, and really those two squares were never an issue as the players always started 4 squares in and then advanced to the middle.

But still it did raise some interesting questions that have not been talked about in SWM sanctioned play.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:39 am 
Master of the Order
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dnemiller wrote:
ok guys if you can help me out (I am looking you Lobo) I am going to create a RAC committee Forum that will only be viewable to the RAC members. You Hall of Famers know what I mean as only you can see the HoF discussion area. I also need everyone to post their best email address. So I can send out mass emails.


Dean, are you asking me to set up that forum? I can if that's what you need, no problem. Any particular place you'd like it to be in the forums here? Under the DCI/Meta section?

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:47 am 
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I would actually suggest completely different forums/different domain/etc. I'll be happy to register a domain/setup a forum for it, my expense, and register it all to you, Dean. It's just been my experience that keeping things separated is better for everyone. Also, it would give a place, with a specific purpose, for RA's to go for information/answers.


EDIT: I just checked and swmrac.org/com/net are available

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:50 am 
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As for a resource, it would be nice to have a D/L'able Gambit Ring for the relevent maps (especially the starship that deviates from the standard format). It's easy but having that as a resource could help on initially small and growing locations that aren't familiar with the format.

It may have been tossed up but I thought it would be a good start on downloadable resources.

I think I may be much more suited for #2 on the list of locations to help with. I am much better at finding and compiling pertinent information for resources. I'll post or email more later as I am currently at work.


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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:02 pm 
Master of the Order
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Here's my first, just real quick, crack at the cards that Dean is looking for. I think I have the basic idea of what he wants. Dean, did I interpret your "Reg Comp Champs" line correctly?

Front:
Image

Back:
Image


Could probably use some clean-up with some crisper graphics, maybe a nicer looking border. I just grabbed what I had easily at hand to toss up an idea for discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:58 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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dnemiller wrote:
Also Jim and I have spoken about this and one of the things the RAC should look at is the General Obi Wan Kenobi issue. We should be playtesting this to see if we really are going to consider banning him.


Should this be tested in Dynamic Dou as well? Just a thought. That is what we are casually playing tonight.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:03 pm 
Master of the Order
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Heh, probably not a bad idea. Luckily, there is only one option with GOWK in DD (Zam Wessel). I think the combo of Tyranus LOTDS and Durge JH, which is also fairly solid against a lot of other things as well, could easily toast GOWK, especially when GOWK can only do a net damage to Durge of 20 per round because of Regen. Take Zam down quick, and then let Tyranus build up FPs while Durge Triple GOWK all day long.

I'm sure there are combinations that will really have a tough time beating GOWK in DD, but I'm not sure I'd be quite as worried about it as I am in standard 150 or 200 point play.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:10 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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My rough idea. Probably needs to have the DCI logo added to and touched up here and there.

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 Post subject: Re: 2009 Rules Advisory Committee
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:13 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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LoboStele wrote:
I'm sure there are combinations that will really have a tough time beating GOWK in DD, but I'm not sure I'd be quite as worried about it as I am in standard 150 or 200 point play.


Yeah that is what I sort of figured as well. I just have the opportunity to test it tonight. I will see what the other the other folks think in my crew and see what we come up with.

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