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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:09 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Very cool! And they included the new Initiative ruling for activating 1 too. On a side note, both Ossus and Korriban were left off of maps not legal for any play.


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:18 pm 
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Nicely done. I know alot of work and patience had to go into getting these changes done.



Now let's turn up the fire on the judge's test!!! :saber:

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:17 pm 
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Thank you Dean!


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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:04 am 
One of The Ones
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LOL, Lackey. Nice catch on the Ossus/Korriban maps. I didn't even think about that. Not that it matters too much though. Anybody playing DCI pretty much should know that those maps have never been included. Would be nice to have it official at some point though. Certainly not a big deal though.

It's definitely nice to finally have the full update for the other maps though. This means we've nearly tripled the number of legal maps for 200 point games in the last year. That's freakin' awesome.

Now I gotta go update the Map Thread in the Archives to show which maps are legal for which formats. :P

EDIT: Oooh, somebody in our group (and I'm sure on the WOTC boards by now) asked how Tarkin's CE is going to be affected because of the 'activate 1 in the first phase' change. Dodonna is an easy one to reason out ("you can choose to activate 1" doesn't allow you to do 2 in that first phase), but Tarkin's is trickier. Has NickName or anybody ruled on that yet?

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:00 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
EDIT: Oooh, somebody in our group (and I'm sure on the WOTC boards by now) asked how Tarkin's CE is going to be affected because of the 'activate 1 in the first phase' change.
, but Tarkin's is trickier. Has NickName or anybody ruled on that yet?


Somebody!?
HELLO!? :wink:
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NickName_
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Join Date: Sep 2004

Re: Quick question about the new initiative rule

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dodonna can't change it. Dodonna does not give you the option of 1 or 2--he gives you the option between whatever you have and 1. (See Dodonna's card.) And Veed would be the same.

Tarkin I believe should work, and in (early) discussions about it with Rob it seemed he agreed, but Dean has mentioned the final decision was otherwise even though the final wording doesn't support it. I'll get that confirmed, but no reason to think it's not true. (And Mundi has the same issue.)

Looks like he's still on the fence... as of now

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:20 am 
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The Madman wrote:
HELLO!? :wink:


LOL. I had like 10 emails this morning all about the Floor Rules stuff. I was too lazy to go double-check who brought it up first. :P

Nice to see that my reasoning concerning Dodonna was spot on with Nickname's ruling. :D

And I had completely forgot about Ki-Adi Mundi....not that anybody really plays him much anyways, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:27 am 
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That's why we love you here at the handicap center :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:55 am 
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I believe it will end with none, as that was what Dean has said would be the case. But I suppose you never know :)

Personally, for consistency sake, I don't want to explain to people why I can use Tarkin and they cannot use Dodonna.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:30 pm 
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I totally agree and understand what you are saying Bill, but it seems to me that is counter productive for WOTC. To me, these floor rules changes announce the second big shift in gameplay with Gambit being the first. I think of it like MTG. Wizards comes out with a set of cards and there are cards that tourney players like that casual players think suck and vice versa, but at the end of the day there are plenty of pieces for both sides. If wizards rules that Tarkin is an exception than that opens the door to them for future mechanics they can put on pieces. They can move closer to having pieces that appeal to only the competetive side and pieces that appeal to the casual player. For awhile though it will be like it is and the pieces will greatly appeal to both. At 3 sets a year this kind of thinking opens the door to Wizards being able to fill sets with 2 types and the more the rules are seperated the easier it will be for them to do this. Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Could I have a direct link? Thanks in advance.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:06 pm 
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Boba52 wrote:
I totally agree and understand what you are saying Bill, but it seems to me that is counter productive for WOTC. To me, these floor rules changes announce the second big shift in gameplay with Gambit being the first. I think of it like MTG. Wizards comes out with a set of cards and there are cards that tourney players like that casual players think suck and vice versa, but at the end of the day there are plenty of pieces for both sides. If wizards rules that Tarkin is an exception than that opens the door to them for future mechanics they can put on pieces. They can move closer to having pieces that appeal to only the competetive side and pieces that appeal to the casual player. For awhile though it will be like it is and the pieces will greatly appeal to both. At 3 sets a year this kind of thinking opens the door to Wizards being able to fill sets with 2 types and the more the rules are seperated the easier it will be for them to do this. Just a thought.


Um, no. Tournament rules should still be simple. I am fairly certain 1 is meant to be 1 no matter what. The entire point of the change is that players have viewed initiative, and init control to be too powerful or too random for competitive play. Allowing exceptions, or the option for future pieces to break it, when its only a rule in DCI play anyways is a bad, bad idea :)

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:13 pm 
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Partof1 wrote:
Could I have a direct link? Thanks in advance.


I can't link directly because I'm at work, but the website you want is: www.thedci.com

Then you go about half-way, 2/3 of the way down the page and click on the link that says Floor Rules or something like that. Then click on the SWM specific part of the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:21 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
Partof1 wrote:
Could I have a direct link? Thanks in advance.


I can't link directly because I'm at work, but the website you want is: http://www.thedci.com

Then you go about half-way, 2/3 of the way down the page and click on the link that says Floor Rules or something like that. Then click on the SWM specific part of the rules.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/doccenter/home

At the bottom you get Word or PDF choices.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:07 pm 
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So, I realize I am just a scrub and don't have NDC syndrome like some here do, so I will never know what really happened. When the rule book came out and Rob said -who said we where thinking of changing init?- (no quotes cause I am paraphrasing) was that a shot at the guys in the know???

I am confused cause based on Rob's comments it seems this was a 100% player driven change? and therefore it would seem the floor rules and the rule book being different was the only logical conclusion. Am I missing something?

EDIT: found the discussion. I guess since you guys didn't say anything about it then not much as changed. :P

Q&A with Rob and Sarah at Gamers Nov 13th 08 wrote:
‹Fool› #9) Rob: What was the thinking behind not changing the initiative rule at this time? Are we likely to see it in the future, and if so when and how?
‹WotC_Rob› What made you think I was thinking about changing or not changing initiative?
‹Fool› I read on a post on the WotC by a user there (I think Ulic Qel-Droma) about a "new initiative rule". Basically, it outlined that at the start of every phase the person going first was to activate one rather then 2.
‹WotC_Rob› Sweet, a question based on a rumor that someone posted on the internet!
‹Fool› Rumors abound! Sorry about that guys
‹WotC_Rob› Now... that being said...
‹WotC_Rob› My desire is to make the best game play experience possible.
‹WotC_Rob› The Dungeons and Dragons Miniatures game has certainly borrowed many ideas from Star Wars Miniatures, and vice versa.
‹WotC_Rob› We've been testing it internally, but are not prepared to go one way or another at this time.
‹Fool› Right, to my understanding that rule applies there (D & D). Understood, that we'll move along away from that topic for now.
‹WotC_Rob› The first place you are likely to see a change in the initiative rules would be during an update of the DCI floor rules for SWM.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:21 pm 
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Boba52 wrote:
So, I realize I am just a scrub and don't have NDC syndrome like some here do, so I will never know what really happened. When the rule book came out and Rob said -who said we where thinking of changing init?- (no quotes cause I am paraphrasing) was that a shot at the guys in the know???

I am confused cause based on Rob's comments it seems this was a 100% player driven change? and therefore it would seem the floor rules and the rule book being different was the only logical conclusion. Am I missing something?

EDIT: found the discussion. I guess since you guys didn't say anything about it then not much as changed. :P

‹Fool› #9) Rob: What was the thinking behind not changing the initiative rule at this time? Are we likely to see it in the future, and if so when and how?
‹WotC_Rob› What made you think I was thinking about changing or not changing initiative?
‹Fool› I read on a post on the WotC by a user there (I think Ulic Qel-Droma) about a "new initiative rule". Basically, it outlined that at the start of every phase the person going first was to activate one rather then 2.
‹WotC_Rob› Sweet, a question based on a rumor that someone posted on the internet!
‹Fool› Rumors abound! Sorry about that guys
‹WotC_Rob› Now... that being said...
‹WotC_Rob› My desire is to make the best game play experience possible.
‹WotC_Rob› The Dungeons and Dragons Miniatures game has certainly borrowed many ideas from Star Wars Miniatures, and vice versa.
‹WotC_Rob› We've been testing it internally, but are not prepared to go one way or another at this time.
‹Fool› Right, to my understanding that rule applies there (D & D). Understood, that we'll move along away from that topic for now.
‹WotC_Rob› The first place you are likely to see a change in the initiative rules would be during an update of the DCI floor rules for SWM.


I would guess that Rob and Nickname decided that it was not in the best interest of the CASUAL side of the SWM game to make a drastic change like this. The competitive players have felt that first phase combos have been way too powerful for a while now, so it doesn't surprise me to see this finally make it into the competitive rules. It certainly makes things a tad confusing for anyone who wants to play both casual and DCI games, but at least there's a clear distinction between the two.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:28 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
It certainly makes things a tad confusing for anyone who wants to play both casual and DCI games, but at least there's a clear distinction between the two.


I completely agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:25 pm 
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Well, looks like we have an answer for Mr. Tarkin form the man himself.

WotC Rob wrote:
Point of clarification:

Yes, you can activate up to 3 characters if you go first and Grand Moff Tarkin has line of sight to an enemy at the start of the phase.

Rob


So to me, this opens the door to my earlier example where Wizos could theoretically make a piece with an effect that states you can activate 2 characters at the start of initiative and have the competitive players say woohoo that has value to me and the casual ones go what who cares that has no benefit to me. The fork in the road just got wider IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:02 pm 
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Boba52 wrote:
So to me, this opens the door to my earlier example where Wizos could theoretically make a piece with an effect that states you can activate 2 characters at the start of initiative and have the competitive players say woohoo that has value to me and the casual ones go what who cares that has no benefit to me. The fork in the road just got wider IMHO.


Eh, I would just see them doing something more akin to a combination between Dodonna and Tarkin where it says "You can choose to activate 1 or 2 characters per phase", or possibly just "You can choose to activate 1 or 2 character on your first phase in this round". That wouldn't really be a very powerful ability though, especially outside of the DCI structure. It would basically give you the option to extend your number of phases by 1 activation. In DCI, I could see it being possibly useful (you'd be able to activate only 1 on the first phase even if you go 2nd in a round). I'd most likely figure they'd do it like Tarkin's CE but say "up to 2 characters". Then again, they may come out with pieces that make the powers that be completely rethink the inclusion of that rule in the Floor Rules altogether. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Floor Rules Updated!!!! (Finally)
PostPosted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:37 pm 
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Too Powerful?? wrote:
Commander Effect:
You may activate as many or as few characters in each phase as you wish!

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