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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:24 pm 
Master of the Order
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dnemiller wrote:
I think somewhere it has been stated before we are not going to change or compete against Pasttimes but it keeps getting lost.

Again I dont think this is a good idea. We dont want to cut the legs out of the one major tourney we have. We need to direct ourselves to making another major tourney... I think the one we are trying for in March would be perfect.... giving us two major tourneys....


Dennis, If this is disturbing you please add your voice as to what to do.... that is why this is a forum to get everyones ideas and make the best use of all of the ideas.

I am sure you have some ideas you want to see done or how we could make things better... so please add them join the discussion.


Well I have some ideas about what to do, and I am going to pursue those avenues first before I jump on this bandwagon. I talked to Rob and Chris for about 30 minutes after the seminar and both of them made some suggestions that were a heckuva a lot more specific than what was said during the seminar.

Getting contact time with Sarah and Rachel is a top priority for me at this point. Whether that will happen I don't know, but I believe Rob and Chris will both be supportive of getting the issue addressed in a way that is good for everyone involved, including WotC.

I'm sorry, I just don't feel comfortable sharing Rob's suggestions publicly, not yet. But I promise I will when I see where they lead.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:11 pm 
Master of the Order
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dnemiller wrote:
well just to let you know I did send an email to Andy, Scott and Reid.... again asking some questions and asking for some honest straight forward answers and not just a glossing over. So I have made some attmept to get something out of them. I dont know what good it will do... but maybe they will look and listen after the fact we know Rob was reading the thread on wizos today. Yes Bill, James and I are stalking him.

and as of this post only Andy has responded to me. Bought the norm for me.


What did he say?

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:42 am 
Master of the Order
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I like what I'm hearing in general, but I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, and point out the potential problems I'm seeing at this point. I'm often much better at finding the holes in a plan, rather than coming up with it in the first place. So, these might be a bit random, but just the different thoughts I've had as I read through this thread.

First of all.....why 150 points? As a community, many of us agree that the 200 point game is much more open, often more fun, and even less dependent on dice rolling. I know time-limits are a factor, but the majority of the top players around here will still tell you that it's just as simple to finish a 200 point game in an hour as it is to finish a 150 point game. Just a thought.

I like Fool's comments about catering to the multiple point formats, but especially for our very first shot at this thing, i think we need to choose one and stick to it. To top that off, I honestly don't think there is any way you will get LGS to agree to strict schedules of 100, 150, and a 200 point every month. A good number of the guys at our LGS have been dying to do less competitive stuff for a while now, since all we did were 100/150/200 for 3 straight months leading up to GenCon. They don't want to any sort of high-competitive stuff for probably several months here. There is absolutely no way I'd be able to convince them to do something like this, and we're a somewhat competitive store at ACME. YottaQuest, the other store in the area....absolutely no way. They average 1 DCI event a month, and that's pretty much just to keep their good standing with DCI, as most of the players there are very new or younger and don't give a flip about the high end competitive game. I just don't see that being all that possible.

Besides, I don't really see a 'Season' being the best answer, especially at this stage in the process. We're talking about some pretty big endeavors here, so best to start simple. If a couple years from now it's grown enough that it makes sense to run it as a 'season', then sure, go for it then. For now, I think the qualifiers, plus the Championship would be enough.

If we were to do events at GenCon, you'd have to keep the main 'championship' events on Friday and Saturday to ensure the most people would be able to attend. Too many people either can't get into town on Thursday, or have to leave first thing on Sunday in order for large events to be effective on those days. And I agree with the idea that we really don't want to interfere with any of the events going on at GenCon. Sure, it would be cool to have a big Championship event there, with the public watching, but then it means that the Pasttimes team would likely need to provide a separate event for all the players who can't be in the Championship. Also means you'd probably want to offer a last-chance qualifier at GenCon as well. GenCon is already packed full as it is, and I suspect, regardless of what WOTC does next year, Alan/Jim/Pasttimes will want to run their Jedi Masters event again, and ths would conflict with that. I think the best bet is a wholly separate event.

I see Bill's point about someone who has already qualified getting to play more games. But I do agree with Shawn as well, if a person who has already qualified, shows up to a tourney, and beats somebody in the first couple rounds, and knocks them further down the chain, then it might not really be all that fair. Bill's point of skipping the person if they finish at the top makes sense, but what if the person who got beat early on ends up in 7th or 8th place, a couple away from squeaking in? The only reason they may that far down the chain is because their SOS was a lot easier due to being bumped into the 'loser bracket' early in the competition. Both reasons are certainly valid to entertain though. Maybe the way to do it would be to allow anyone to participate in the last-chance Vassal qualifier, but all the open qualifiers in the other Regions would be limited to people who hadn't already qualified somewhere else. Might be good to let all those people play in the Vassal one anyways, to ensure that the competition level is high enough. If most of the world's best players already qualified earlier in the yeat, then the last-chance Vassal matches might be a lower-caliber player pool, simple due to the fact that the majority of the other top-end players are excluded due to previously qualifying. Allowing them to play, but still skipping them for the final rankings/qualifying, would help ensure the playing field is top-notch, while still giving everyone some more practice. Could even hold more than one Vassal qualifier if people really wanted to.

OK, that's it for now. Maybe later today I'll have more ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:39 am 
Unnamed Wookiee
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I may or may not be welcome here. but here is my 2 cents. I have questions, ideas, praise, and yes, some critique.

I praise you for the idea of attempting to run more tournaments. I think as a community we need to do more of this.

Will you be double reporting to DCI for all the vassal stuff? No LGS in my area does DCI reporting right now. Hopefully soon though. In the case of no LGS could player run events happen? Could i organize events for scoring points in your league weekly or monthly?

I don't think st. Louis is a good idea at all. Now please bare with me here, i don't want this to be pax thread part 2... Many folks on the Pax thread argued that the reason they wouldn't attend the WoTC championship there next year was it was traveling only for 1 tournament and league. That is gonna be true of a single event in St. Louis. Granted i know you guys are mostly midwest folks but there are other great players you'd be ignoring by doing this. in the same way PAX does to you. Unless your event intends to include 4 days of gaming ala GENCON.

I DO HAVE A SOLUTION. INstead of someplace with little to no tourist appeal, do it in Vegas or chicago, or Vancouver BC, Or New York CIty or someplace people might want to visit aside from the SWM tournament, that sure makes it easier to convince wives and gf's to go along with it. Vegas is probably the best choice really, people like to go there.

I agree with Boris... now that's something I'm surprised to type... We need to Compliment DCI not compete with it if this is the path you plan to take.

-Slie


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:14 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Is that to say Shinja and I can run a little 4+ person tournaments and report it to "you" and you will report it to DCI for us?


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:24 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Yeah we can organize 4-5 folks now that summer is over I'm thinking it'll be more soon. I Don't know cherry Penguin. But I'd be happy to try to be TO.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:35 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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i emailed sara. there was a little about pax/gencon but not much in the email. But all i got back from reid was about why PAX was not a bad move on there part.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:00 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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I'll bring that up with Shinja, and his wife.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:10 pm 
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I posted this in the thread Dean started on Wizos but I will post it here too.

It's disappointing that Sarah chose not to interact with a member of the community who took the time to contact her directly.

And it's clear from this e-mail from Reid that the people who make the decisions aren't really paying attention.

I mean how can he say something is NOT clearly thought out and then in the next breath agree they should have announced the location for their Championship sooner?

It sounds to me like he is unwilling to admit to being human.

It's really hard to swallow this level of bs when we are getting what I consider straight-shooting from others in the company, people who are humble enough to admit screw-ups they make and kind and respectful enough of the community that keeps them employed by talking to us on a frequent basis.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:41 pm 
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im going to give it a week or two and see if bill wants to call sarah. cuz emailing isnt working.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:12 pm 
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Hate to interrupt the current train of thought but just thought of something I wanted to voice: byes. Should we keep byes being counted as a win (so 3 points). If we're changing it so a loss gets 1 point and a draw gets 2 points, why don't we also change the byes? I personally don't think they should be counted as a full 3 points but instead something in between (as in either 1 or 2). I've experienced it and heard about too many people winning tourney's when they get the bye first round. Again, this is just my personal opinion, but its something that does bug me in regular DCI play...


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:57 pm 
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Dean as I have said over the last couple of times we talked, I want to help the game/community grow, just not sure how. So if there is anything that I can do that you can think of, I'm onboard to help.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:01 pm 
Unnamed Wookiee
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Ok a few comments.

#1 Years ago magic almost died. It was only revived after they started Friday Night Magic, regionals, championships, etc. SWM needs a larger reason to play, a place for the game to grow. I don't believe that can only be in the RPG. A tournament structure could expand its player base, give people a reason to be competitive and a reason to play the game.

#2 We have got to network and use all of our connections. We need to tap our resources. Work on getting support though LGS and sponsors. This is a principle that needs to be more fully applied.

#3 Can we get a ventrillo server up for SWM. Mostly used for vassal. That would add the voice chat that everyone is talking about.

#4 Start somewhere and grow. I believe we should use what is in place and expand. Only redo what is truly broken. We should probably leave DCI alone, but to start we could add regionals and a more productive championship. If you want a championship event at Gencon and you can't get it done there why don't you host it across the street (in a local LGS). Just don't have it conflict with other Gencon SWM events.

#5 Simplify at first. Over time you can get more complex. An example being point value. Back in the day there were varying rules about how many magic cards you could use in your deck. We need some more standardization and for now tightening of point values and other rules. To start choose 150 or 200 and later you could add the other and 100 points to side events.

#6 SWM needs definition. I believe this community could define it. Is it for causal play and RPG. Can it be a strategic competitive game. Do we run tourneys a little longer and do a true 200. Is 150 cutting the game back two significantly.

Here are a few of my thoughts. I will try to put others down in writing sometime soon.

If we want a regional or national event in KC jaster and I could set it up. The game cafe my LGS is open to hosting it.

*hope all this makes sense i am exhausted.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:45 pm 
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Just something from the chess geek side. We have this hour time limit (usually) but one person can literally take 50 minutes of that hour up. Kinda hoses the other player. I would say use the chess clock where each game gets an hour total but each player only gets a half an hour out of that hout before times up. Just like in chess, first person to run out of time loses (rather than first person to score 5 points then run out the clock wins). The only time I see that as being a bit of a rush on a person is when they are running a swarm squad.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:18 am 
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Jedi_Master wrote:
Just something from the chess geek side. We have this hour time limit (usually) but one person can literally take 50 minutes of that hour up. Kinda hoses the other player. I would say use the chess clock where each game gets an hour total but each player only gets a half an hour out of that hout before times up. Just like in chess, first person to run out of time loses (rather than first person to score 5 points then run out the clock wins). The only time I see that as being a bit of a rush on a person is when they are running a swarm squad.



Personally, I still don't see the time thing to be an issue. Out of like, 20 games at GenCon, I think I only had 3-4 actually go to time. And 1 or 2 of those were pretty obvious winners by that point anyways. Now, obviously, it varies for every person, but I didn't have one single complaint about people stalling. And yes, I played against a few different swarm squads.

I personally think that a standard time limit, plus the option to ask a judge to keep an eye on your game to be sure that both players are taking reasonable amounts of time is the best method.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:01 pm 
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We have 6-8 steady players weekly and I am always looking for more (I own the store :D ). I am NOT a big fan of Wizards, not so much from SWM but for their other business practices, particularly the way they handle Magic.

I feel what holds SWM back is simply people don't know about it. I try to push this game as much as possible, plus try to make sure my players are happy. We offer "demo's", we have had league play on Saturdays and try to create fun events for the players (themes, restricted events) just to spark interest. Locally though....no other store even run tournaments, that I am aware of.

From a store owners standpoint, if you treat your players good, give them fair prices...your business/players will grow. I really will do whatever I can to help this game grow. If SWM is opting to do something different, let me know...plus, we have all of our players active on these forums too. Knowledge is power :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:19 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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Over on the other side of the pond (Sweden, that is), we have started looking into an alternative to DCI, using VPs instead. The more VPs you score, the better your standing. The tie breaker is gambit scores. It is still a system that needs a lot of work, but we use it for constructed.

The upside of it is that it pushes the two players to score as many points as possible, since that is the way to win.

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