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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:35 am 
Black Sun Thug
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I don't really have anything to add, as I don't current play DCI, but I am with you Dean.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:54 am 
Sith Infiltrator
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Dean, you know I am with you 100%. If someone who knows how to write coding, such as Vassal, if they could teach me I could keep it updated with the latest Figures and Maps.

EDIT: Also, we could try to make a better more efficient Vassal. Capable of Voice Chats with Mics, *Blocking* those unwanted users from entering a room to spam, just give it an all around face lift for the better. Like I said previously, I am in and will help where ever I can. If someone showed me the proper coding, I'd be happy to do this.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:30 pm 
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I think a system more akin to the one used in some of the other Card games and even in the (Now defunct ) Dreamblade system

you get points for playing-
yes, a loss should take points away
but more for successes
and
it's cumulative

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:47 pm 
Jedi Battlemaster
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I am interested. Especially after the abysmal turnout at the 'Canadian Championships'. But there are certainly a lot of hurdles to overcome.

Would it be legal? would DCI or W(S)otC come after us for copying their idea

How would it be financed? would only the Con/Tournaments/Qualifiers cost, or would we do a yearly fee thing..

Do we have the man power, starting with this site alone to get a international organization going. Basically to make this work, we'd be asking hundreds if not thousands of players to either increase their time commitments to SWM or give up on DCI support like the Promos, maps, etc..

I'm interested for certain, and am willing to help out if/where I can.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:52 pm 
Sith Apprentice
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Gotta admit I like the way you're thinking Dean, although I do have one worry.

Advantages, as I see it:

1. I love the possibility that much better decisions about maps could become possible. The best of JediCartographer's maps could become legal, and we could even open up the idea of disallowing certain unbalanced official maps (*cough*hardboard*cough*).

2. Vassal play for rating purposes. I've seen that you've been running DCI Vassal tourneys (and I've been sad they were on nights when I couldn't participate), but obviously with a player-run governing body we could make that easier to set up.

3. We can sanction our own "big" tournaments. And while we're in full brainstorm mode (and sorry if this is a bit off-topic), may I suggest KC as a location for a "qualifier" or "major". Relatively reasonable trip for the Lamar/Springfield crowd and the Nebraska crowd, slightly tougher trip for all the players I've heard about in Illinois, and KC itself has developed a really strong group of minis players (in no small part through the efforts of Jaster Mareel, who has done a really nice job encouraging the growth of the KC-area scene). Again, total brainstorm, and I'm not sure exactly where one would want to hold the tourney, but it is a decent idea, I think.


My only worry is, since DCI is, as I understand it, controlled by the same people who produce minis, do we risk antagonizing them? You're much, much closer to this stuff than I am, Dean--I buy some figs and trade some figs and play the game from time to time, whereas you have actual direct contact with the powers that be--but is there any possible blowback from doing something that might be perceived as biting the hand that feeds us? I'm not saying that anything bad would happen--I really don't know. I guess I'm just curious about what, if anything, the Wizards response might be to the development of something like this.

But that said, I really do think there is a lot of potential for this to be very cool.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 5:16 pm 
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I don't think this system is meant to replace the DCI, I don't know if that is entirely possible. I look at it is as more of an alternative option for governing rules, legal maps, etc. If the COMmunity decides to push forward with running our own GenCon and/or Vassal SWM Championship it would be nice to have our own set of a commonly accepted rules set forth by the COMmunity itself. I've been told the hoops are ridiculous when you try to have the DCI Floor Rules updated. Having our own system would eliminate those hoops.

If it's something that catches on, who knows where it could go. The only thing that matters when it comes to the DCI are the league kits. DCI rankings don't mean anything, and apparently our player participation numbers don't mean anything (even though they are equal to DDM's numbers).

I personally haven't had any issues with DCI, but I know that it has been a nightmare for Dean. So I think this is a collective effort between Dean and myself to see if the SWM COMmunity is willing to move beyond the limits set forth by WotC and the DCI.

I would like to see all of your opinions, good or bad, pro or con. I'm not going to argue with anyone, I just want to do what makes SWM Players the happiest.

Shawn.
:)


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:20 pm 
Droid Army Commander
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stsparks72 wrote:
The only thing that matters when it comes to the DCI are the league kits. DCI rankings don't mean anything


Ding, ding, ding. Now you've got it.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:26 pm 
Jedi Battlemaster
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I concur.. the 'free' stuff is what keeps people playing DCI sanctioned tournies. if we could offer some kind of equal league support (JC map's, have someone do some custom repaints on Cs/UCs, a printed up scenario every now and again), we'd be in business.. of course the issue of who's pocket it comes out of..

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:30 pm 
Master of the Order
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I think its a lot of unncessary work.

We could use DCI and do our own events (ie qualifiers, regional tournaments, etc.), and then let them worry about the Championship.

Despite everything, I still think the solution to this is cooperation not competition. We start butting heads with them and you think they're difficult to deal with now - just watch. Right now, we still have allies in the company. I don't want to alienate them, or force them into a position where they can't support us.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:46 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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I've got to side with Boris, here. We're quite capable of doing a lot of our own events, but at the same time we've got to "keep up the image" to DCI. No need to alienate them right now.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:51 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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dnemiller wrote:
ok this is a good point that Shawn and I talked about. I really think that it would be best served that we probably still reported to both.... DCI and whatever we come up with. That way stores still can get their league kits and stay in good with wizards.

But what it gives us is freedom. They can report wins and losses to DCI and that is terrific. But we control the maps, We control set qualifiers. One that we set up. We have global tourneys via vassal. We get real rankings and we determine how things go.

So yes I agree we must still deal with DCI.


This is exactly how I see it as well. I'm in, I will do whatever I can to support it and plan it.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:41 pm 
Unnamed Stormtrooper
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dnemiller wrote:
Shinja who said he could write a program that can do what DCI reporter does now. What does that do for us. We make it availible for download here for any and all that wish to download it.

This is a great idea. Bloomilk is aweseom & I'd like to see what Shinja does with this project.

dnemiller wrote:
What would this do for us. It would immediately give us control over our game. Because that is what it is our game. We would define the terms of competitive play. It would give us more options of defining who are the best players. We can make the rating actually mean something. We can hold our own qualifiers for the championships.

Sounds great.

dnemiller wrote:
We can also run tourneys online using vassal... giving a global championship.
Sounds great but I've found Vassal difficult to use but I'd bite the bullet & figure it out if there was something at stake.

dnemiller wrote:
We can run big tourneys in real life... with real prizes... not just cash but as Shawn has pointed out prizes for everyone.... and something worth playing for..

Awesome!

DarkLordVerjal wrote:
Also, we could try to make a better more efficient Vassal. Capable of Voice Chats with Mics, *Blocking* those unwanted users from entering a room to spam, just give it an all around face lift for the better.

This sounds like a good idea & maybe Shinja could be involved with this as well.

buttcabbge wrote:
1. I love the possibility that much better decisions about maps could become possible. The best of JediCartographer's maps could become legal,

Me too!!
buttcabbge wrote:
My only worry is, since DCI is, as I understand it, controlled by the same people who produce minis, do we risk antagonizing them? is there any possible blowback from doing something that might be perceived as biting the hand that feeds us? I'm not saying that anything bad would happen--I really don't know. I guess I'm just curious about what, if anything, the Wizards response might be to the development of something like this.


I'm worried about that too. Worst case scenario WOTC says eff u & stops producing SWM. But there's enough out & coming out to keep this game fun forever & if that ever happens or it dies it's natural death, we can always continue to make custom maps & custom minis as well which by the way could be legal for this new governing body.
Ruhk wrote:
if we could offer some kind of equal league support (JC map's, have someone do some custom repaints on Cs/UCs, a printed up scenario every now and again), we'd be in business.. of course the issue of who's pocket it comes out of..

Maybe there could be a set of this free stuff-whatever it is-that goes to a state rep. Each state has a rep that hold events for the new governing body which by the way I think should be called Order 66. How poetic.
End random thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:47 pm 
Jedi Knight
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im in with this
and i do love the idea of voice on vassal
that way it feels more like you are actually playing someone and not some random person
IM also gettin kinda sick of wizards due to the fact taht the gleemax site SUCKS!, we seem unimportant to them, and finally if they are gonna move the "world Championship" give us the freakin stat cards for the figs i mean comon what a rip off
and if needed for a Championship well prizes should be no problem (not to seem greedy in anyway shape or form)

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:00 pm 
Black Sun Thug
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dnemiller wrote:
ok this is a good point that Shawn and I talked about. I really think that it would be best served that we probably still reported to both.... DCI and whatever we come up with. That way stores still can get their league kits and stay in good with wizards.

But what it gives us is freedom. They can report wins and losses to DCI and that is terrific. But we control the maps, We control set qualifiers. One that we set up. We have global tourneys via vassal. We get real rankings and we determine how things go.

So yes I agree we must still deal with DCI.


How do we report to DCI if we are using maps and stuff that aren't DCI legal?


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:34 am 
Black Sun Thug
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But how does it work to report the wins losses to DCI when it isn't a DCI win or loss if it's not played by there rules? Or do you just pretend it is just so it works? What happens when people that stand by DCI hear that you are cheating? Will this cause a problem?

*note* I'm just trying to be a backboard here. Make you think about the possibilities. As I stated earlier I don't play DCI, but I am willing to support you.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:09 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
well I guess that is just going to depend on your venue. I find that most venues already are doing this.

Such as how many venues have gentlemans agreements about maps right now

I would say most of them.... Sp I am not sure how many actual problem would arise from it
Good point Dean. I think it's safe to say that most people play on whatever map they feel like at their LGS, whether it's DCI legal or not. I know there is an agreement at the events I run, I don't want to get into specific details about allowable maps, but Geonosis and Mustafar are generally not permitted.

Ask yourselves this question: Is it better to ban Geonosis and Mustafar, but allow Jedicartographer's maps...or vice versa?
:)


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:49 pm 
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I may not be a professional, but I did some coding a couple semesters ago, so I'd be willing to help on that front if shinja and DarkLordVergal need it.


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:03 pm 
Sith Infiltrator
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I actually need to, and want to, learn how to code so I can help.

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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:27 pm 
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my father said he just doesnt have the time


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 Post subject: Re: HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH? - The Alternative to DCI discussion
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:24 pm 
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im taking a Java class next semester and would be willing to help when possible if its neccesary

Edit: Java btw is what runs vassal

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