This is not a place to discuss how much you hate WoTC for Pax being the championship. If you want to discuss that go to the other thread please.

This thread is to discuss what folks think the Metagame at PAX will be like. What kinds of squads will be featured? What Kotor pieces will define the environment?

I'll start, I think General Wedge Antillies Squads will be a new feature to the meta, i'm not sure exactly what shape they will take but i expect to see him in play.

I also expect to see Mando's in some form.

MTB will be a huge fixture and NTMTO will be there too. I'm not sure thrawn will be there as much as in the past.

I'm not sure what squads are tier one in the post kotor Meta. I think we'll see lots of Panaka/r2/Mas combo squads, but that they'll not be tier 1.

What kinds of squads will be successfull in this meta?

-Slie

I wouldn't be surprised for someone to field a Czerka Scientist. Especially with Kel Dors or Storm Commandos in an Imperial SS squad. I know that is gonna be one of the first squads I integrate KotOR pieces into...

Jedi spyder, you pose an interesting question. Will most of the squads be the same old squads we are used to with just some new tweaks via kotor? Or will there be a new tier 1 squad ceated from some core Kotor pieces?

I think there will be about 25 people at the event. 5 of them will have top-tier carbons of what did well at the Masters at GenCon, 5 people will be playing the game for the first time and field the best squad they can with the pieces they have. 5 people will have full sets of KotoR (or as close to it as they can) and will have updated squads. The other 10 will have theme squads or something that is quirky and fun and end up losing.

WotC will tout the event as a success for its first "Championship" away from GenCon.

I definitely think you'll have to be prepared to deal with the Mandalorians. I've been playing around with several different ideas, and I think there's at least a couple of opportunities for squads of entirely non-Unique Mandos to do quite well.

Here's one idea I've been playing with: http://www.bloomilk.com/Squads/ViewSqua ... uadID=5761

To some degree, I think they'll have trouble, as there is no tempo or init control. But then again, One of the popular Han Cannon/Luke Snowspeeder squads right now doesn't have those either. 9 activations means it would get destroyed if someone resurrected the B&B squads, but we're back to rock/paper/scissors then.

On other fronts....I could possibly see a Swiss Army Knife style squad with Juhani instead of the Noghri Commando. She won't hit as often as the Noghri, but Rage gives her about the same Damage output, and the chance for Deadly/Viscious could be a real game breaker.

Obviously, I think you'll see NR Wedge squads. In what capacity I'm not 100% sure right now, but we'll see. He's a fairly solid piece on his own, and as long as you have Lobot/MTB engine available to you, the need for Han GH isn't quite as high. So, perhaps with some other mid-cost shooter piece in there, might be able to make it work.

I could also see a Boba Merc + Wedge + Garm possibly work out, though it's a bit more of the one-trick-pony type, and may be particularly vulnerable to some certain other builds.

More than likely, people will play with four different types of squads.

1) Existing meta - Gencon JM will tell the tale of the LotF/TFU era meta. The results will be reported, squads will be listed, and strategies will be well known. So people will copy. Type 1 will be squads that we already know and love/hate. And example of this will be Han GH/Mara Jedi/MTB. Usually, 1-2 players with skill running a last set meta squad will be at or near the top of a tournament this quick after release. Hence for a top 8 I would expect to see 2-3 squads with no changes from Gencon lists.

2) Minor Tweaks - Some people will take one piece from Kotor and substitute out something from and existing squad. It won't change the squad a whole lot, but perhaps offer a slightly different option. These squads also do well as they really are nothing new and people are really just changing up a common squad type they are already completely familiar with. And example would be running:

--Han Cannon Kotor--
46 Han Solo, Scoundrel
23 Jolee Bindo
20 Princess Leia
18 Lando Calrissian, Dashing Scoundrel
17 Bothan Noble
8 Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Spirit
8 R2-D2
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3
(149pts. 10 activations)

Basically subbing in Jolee as the melee interference who can add Valor to Han and Lando, and a Bothan to power Lando for double Opps, or Han for an extra twin here and there. Another example would be using Wedge in the NRNothing really different than before, but some other options than previous versions. I would expect to see most of the top squads falling into this category, so out of 8, probably 4-5 of them.

3) New squads/factions - This is the place you are likely to see the guys who just like to try everything that is new every set. You will see Mandalore Mandos, OR squads, Wedge led melee squads in the NR, some weird shooter/melee mix squads such as Sion and Boba, or Jolee pumping Sith with Valor, etc. Odds are these guys/girls won't place highly, not because of squad strength/weaknesses, but because they will make mistakes learning the new pieces and won't use them to their highest potencial yet. You will likely see one of these in the top 8 at most.

4) Finally, the post-meta squads. Someone will figure out what the expected meta squads are, and will guess correctly. And whether their choice is a map or squad or likely both, they will have everyone else beat and people will copy their squad for years to come because one guy/girl won one tournament once somewhere with it and they heard it was good. Since this should be a decent enough sized tournament (I predict 20-30 people) odds are its a good squad, but very likely an odd one. For example the squad that won Origens of Mara/Han GH/Shado/Ugos. This may not be the tourney winner, but someone in the top 8 will have a squad we wouldn't normally expect to see ranked at that position, or one that carefully counters the others, even if its not necessarily the best of the best at the end of the day (although it could very well be). The point is, its a post-meta squad - its strength is taking on the PAX meta. For example I give you a melee build. Let's say for example lots of people go with NR Wedge. Someone expects that, and decides to run melee beats who don't care about mobile attack or evade. They successfully win the key inits in the 2-3 close games they play, and their beats take out the shooters.

Hope that about covers it

45 Mara Jade, Jedi
37 Aurra Sing
23 General Wedge Antilles
27 Lobot
09 General Dodonna
09 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

With Lobot, bring in a handful of low cost melee figs or the MTB combo, depending on what you're facing.

I like the idea of Wicket and Garindan for this build. Both have stealth and gain evade, and Dodonna can help them set up the strike at the end of a round. Lead with Aurra in base and Mara ready for an Assault and win or lose init, and you have enough hps and dmg to hit hard enough to win.

Yeah I expect Wedge to be the #1 difference maker from Kotor.

So it seems that prepareing for whatever comes outta Masters at Gencon is the first priority. Then tweaked kotor versions of that is 2nd priority.

Since i'm not going to GENCON I won't get to watch any of the important matches.

Any of you guys video taping the matches? That'd be awesome to post on the site. I'd love to see video of the matches.

Does anyone think these possible new wedge squads will be tier 1? I'm sure that at least 1 is tier 1.5 but at 150 I'm not sure.

oh yeah...

I have a hard time believing that any of the Mando squads can get by without running MTB. I feel they need at minimum Init control, since they can't ever get tempo.

Tempo control seems to be the most important control type in game, followed by init, then doors.

I know that han cannon builds run without tempo in some cases. Though i'm not sure the ones without dodonna are the best.

Tell that to Bill and his Han/Speeder squad which has no tempo or init control.

Most of the Mando's damage potential is based on Tempo or Init control either, so they aren't as dependent on it. They don't care whether they get to shoot at the beginning or the end.

Depends on which mandos you are using, some have cunning(gunsligners) and some have opportunist (Scouts). Scouts seem to be the best fig for cost among the Mando's and they deffinetly would be best served by some Tempo control.

Of course MTB is available to all factions, besides San HIll and NTMTO does anything new give us another options to deal with it?

Does Thrawn gain anything to bring it up to a more playable squad since han/mara and San hill squads basicly put him out on his ear?

I feel like I can't really comment on this too much, because I've already talked to a few people about what they're planning to bring for the Championship.

I will say though, that these are the KotOR minis I have rated as a 10/10 on Bloo Milk for now (not having played any of them yet). I doubt all of them have a tier 1 squad at 150, but they are where I'd start if I were going to make squad for the Championship. And I wouldn't be surprised if the first place squad has at least one of these minis in it.

Juggernaut War Droid
Mira
Darth Malak, Dark Lord of the Sith
Captain Panaka
Captain Tarpals
Gungan Artillerist
Gungan Shieldbearer
General Wedge Antilles
Echani Handmaiden
Jarael
Jolee Bindo
Juhani
Mandalorian Scout

I'm sure other people have other ideas about the best new minis, and I'll probably revise my list after I see how the post-KotOR meta pans out.

The Mando Scout is certainly one of those 'pieces to be feared' and in the current 150 point meta, sure it might be tough to make it work without some tempo control. But that's why I was looking more at the Supercommandos anyways. With a Captain in there, the Scout can do 80 damage max, whereas the SCs can do 60. The 4 point difference probably makes the Scout worth a LOT more overall, but the Supercommando is not dependent on initaitve or tempo control at all, so it can be easily utilized in many situations.

Now, probably the best method though, would be to use Boba Merc Commander along with a couple Mando Scouts and the Czerka Scientist. I think the Captain is better overall for granting Twin to the Scouts, but the Czerka grants Jolt to Boba, helping those Scouts end up being more effective, with or without tempo control.

Again, they will certainly have their weaknesses, but I think it's certainly easy to work around those other problems.

I like the new Mandos alot I"m not Convinced they will be tier 1 though. THey will certainly be there, the last build you mentioned is very much what i'd expect to see.

Mandos are going to have problems against SS squads, IMO. With no disruptive and no high HP characters to charge them down, how can they counter that? I'm not entirely convinced that they are defensive enough, even with mobile attack, to survive powerful shooters like SCs/kel dors, or Han cannon squads.


B&B might be the response to Wedge squads. Why B&B? Because powerful and mobile melee is a great counter to evade and mobile attack. Granted disruptive and NTMTO are a problem, but wedge might drive some people to play that type of squad, based on its' previous sucess. I don't think B&B could win, but it might resurface, somewhat.



Correct me if I'm wrong. While I'm not a competative player, I think I have a reasonable understanding of the the game, the figures, and the stratigies behind the powerful squads.

I expect to not see my GenCon squad at PAX.

Good observation. I hadn't thought about SS too much as I honestly haven't seen THAT much of it even in the current meta. Outside of the Swiss Army Knife types of builds, anyways. But then, SAK has trouble against some other key things as well, so back to rock, paper, scissors.



B&B will have to evolve to deal with the myriad of squads now. There are too many other powerful pieces (like Lucien, Tyranus LOTDS) that can easily shut down Lord Vader's effectiveness. And with both San and Dodonna now running around, it makes it harder and harder to set up those swap attacks. Now, if people start building more NR squads with Wedge but without Han, then I could see Thrawn swap squads making a bigger comeback.

Correct me if I'm wrong. While I'm not a competative player, I think I have a reasonable understanding of the the game, the figures, and the stratigies behind the powerful squads.[/quote]

The thing about Wedge squads is you'll be giving up Mara, Han, or Lobot to get him and each of those losses has a significant downside. Wedge will be good, but I don't think his best use will look like what is currently great for NR.

I can't help but wonder how interesting it would have been if Tarpals and Wedge were on the same faction.