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 Post subject: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:08 am 
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So it looks like WotC decided to go ahead and run the Championship at PAX (Penny Arcade Expo) this year. Here's the info I got from the organizer:

PAX 10
8/29-8/31/2008 (Labor Day Weekend)
Washington State Convention & Trade Center
Seattle, WA

2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship
An open championship where you bring your best 150-point squad to compete for exclusive hand-painted miniatures! Registration begins 1 hour prior to start. Constructed format with gambit rules. Players MUST bring their own Battle Map. Swiss rounds with a cut to a top 8 elimination. Cost: $10. Runs: Saturday 11 am.

I'm not sure what the prize of "exclusive hand-painted miniatures" means. KotOR will be legal for the tournament. All prize support for SWM events at PAX will also be from KotOR.

It looks like there aren't any other tournaments planned, but there will be league play all weekend:

Star Wars Convention League
Challenge all league participants in our weekend long league. Build a 150-point squad from 2 Knights of the Old Republic boosters. Change your squad after every game with minis from your pool. Win a new mini every 3 games to add to your pool. Pay only once for a whole weekend of play. Cost: $30. Runs: All weekend.

It would be cool if we could get a decent turnout for the championship, because it's the first major SWM tournament post-KotOR.

If anyone has any questions or requests for me to pass along to the organizer, let me know.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:19 am 
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:(

That's my first thought. Obviously, I don't know all of the politics behind WOTC's decisions, but this is just stupid, IMO. And to top it off, you got this info from some organizer at the con, and not from WOTC themselves? When are they going to announce it? Does it not occurr to them that it requires a couple months of advance planning for most people to make a trip like this? I mean, seriously. It's like some group intentionally planning an important meeting when they know certain people won't be able to attend, and thus they can get away with something without the dissenters having their say. I know it's different, but that's how it feels.

The cost that it takes to travel to a convention in a town that is not my hometown is a LOT. It requires me to purchase airfare, book a hotel room, schedule time off from work, and likely work some overtime hours ahead of time to be able to pay for the trip.

To top it all off...I already have plans made to go to GenCon. Would I like to participate in a SWM Championship? Sure. But if they think they're going to get any sort of decent amount of participation for something like this, they can go screw themselves.

EDIT: Not to mention the fact that PAX is the EXACT SAME WEEKEND as Dragon*Con, arguably one of the larger conventions in the country. Sure, it's not centered on gaming all that much, but for someone like me who lives on the eastern side of the country, it's much easier to get to Atlanta then to Seattle.

2nd EDIT: And now that I think about it.....production delay for KOTOR my butt. I wouldn't doubt that they moved back the release date just to make it so that PAX would be the first big tournament where KOTOR pieces would be legal. ARGH. I sincerely hope that this is not the case, but the whole thing just feels so dirty and underhanded. Like a punch in the gut to the collective SWM community who has been trying to still support GenCon despite WOTC's shenanigans this year. :(

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:51 am 
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So what, the 10 people who normally play SWMs in Seattle can compete for the "Championship". Completely meaningless to me. As I said before, WotC can call it what they want, I really don't give a rat's behind. The Gencon tournament is the true "Championship" of this year in my book. And that's all I really care about it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:53 am 
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lol, I didn't figure this would go over too well on a board dominated by the Gencon regulars... :)

EDIT: And I don't expect it to have as many participants as the Jedi Master tournament at Gencon. But frankly, more WotC-sanctioned national tournaments at big gaming conventions are a good thing for everyone right?


Last edited by shinja on Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:58 am 
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shinja wrote:
lol, I didn't figure this would go over too well on a board dominated by the Gencon regulars... :)


Can I congratulate you on your 2008 Championship now Shinja? :)

Seriously, I don't even understand the point here. Its not advertised in any way, its on a horrible weekend at a convention that is way off the trail, and its a month away. Heck, I went to the PAX information and they don't have any events listed yet lol.

The question is then, what means more, a "Championship" with 10 participants, or a "Masters" with 50+? I don't care about names, just the success of the events.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:01 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
So what, the 10 people who normally play SWMs in Seattle can compete for the "Championship". Completely meaningless to me. As I said before, WotC can call it what they want, I really don't give a rat's behind. The Gencon tournament is the true "Championship" of this year in my book. And that's all I really care about it.


Haha, I say we start a revolution now. Encourage people to only call the GenCon event the 2008 Championship, and call the PAX event just the "PAX Tournament", or something like that. Hmm....perhaps it's time to edit the signature both here and on the WOTC boards again.

Shinja, sorry if we come off harsh about it, and I'm sure you are super excited, since it's in your hometown, and isn't half way across the country like GenCon is. So, I hope for your sake that you get a decent turnout, and that you guys have fun there.

Like many have said before though. Until WOTC starts running a SWM Championship the way they do D&D, Magic, etc. with qualifiers and paid travel/expenses to the main event, it really won't be a good indication of who is a 'Champion' and who isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:05 am 
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I'm actually not even participating in the tournament--I'm judging it. I don't think the winner of the tournament should be called the "champion" or whatever. I'm just excited to see what kind of new squads end up doing well. In my opinion, this shouldn't take away from Gencon at all, but I realize that calling this the "championship" is going to make some people upset.


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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:23 am 
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I think you guys are reading way more conspiracy into this then is really there.

I found this thread yesterday: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1054527 after weeks of searching for any info on SWM at PAX. In like the 4th post down, the guy mentions needing judges for SWM.

I e-mailed him and asked what kind of SWM events there would be, and if he needed me to judge anything. He told me that he knows very little about SWM (he's mainly the RPGA guy), and he asked me to judge a tournament on the Saturday of PAX. Then he sent me the info about the tournament and league that I copied and pasted into the OP here. I asked him if I could post this info to other places or if it was under wraps for some reason, and he said to go ahead and tell anyone and everyone about it.


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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:24 pm 
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Not conspiracy. Irritation.

shinja wrote:
I e-mailed him and asked what kind of SWM events there would be, and if he needed me to judge anything. He told me that he knows very little about SWM (he's mainly the RPGA guy), and he asked me to judge a tournament on the Saturday of PAX. Then he sent me the info about the tournament and league that I copied and pasted into the OP here. I asked him if I could post this info to other places or if it was under wraps for some reason, and he said to go ahead and tell anyone and everyone about it.


If this is how it happened, then like I said, no hard feelings against you. But if what you posted in the first post is exactly the information that this guy had, calling it a "SWM Championship", then it worries me. It means that WOTC has been planning to run a "Championship" event there, and the only way any of it got sent out was because someone like you dug enough to find out about it.

Rob himself told me at CIV about the reason why the organized play at CIV was so haphazard, and it sounds EXACTLY like this. Whoever is in charge of organized play events at conventions in the WOTC office doesn't have a freakin' clue how to do their job, and promote the events properly. Rob told me that in a meeting 5 months before CIV, the question was asked "So, what are we going to do at CIV?" The people supposed to be in charge of planning that stuff had no good answer. Boss told them to work on something. Two months later (now only 3 months before the convention) same question asked again: basically the same answer.

So, orgnaizing SWM events at conventions is obviously not a high priority for the SWM group at WOTC, and this just shows it. They want to have a Championship? That's great. They want to do it as an open event to anyone who has the money to travel there for it? Great, no problem with that. It's when they do NOTHING to promote or announce it that it starts to tick people off. I mean, how hard would it have been to put a small announcement up on the SWM page on wizards.com that there would be a Champeionship at PAX on Labor Day weekend, and that more information would be forth coming. At least then people could prepare, make plans, etc. etc.

Add all this onto the way WOTC treated GenCon this year, and it just makes for a very irritating situation at GenCon. I'll have to figure out how to write a civil letter to WOTC's Customer Service department telling them as much.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:40 pm 
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So the cat is finally out of the bag. I hope everyone will tell WotC that you are disappointed that after the bang-up job Jim did with the event last year it was snatched out from under him.

Even if you don't feel that way, a show of support for Jim would be not only well-deserved but also very appreciated. Jim, and Alan (of Pastimes) deserved far better.

And so does the entire community, but especially Jim for taking the reigns of the first championship last year.

Now calm down, Bill, I am not trying to tell anyone what to think, just asking you guys to support Jim.


I am very disappointed, and have had a lot of time to work through the anger of this decision. It is a slap in the face to all of us, not because they are holding it somewhere else, but because they kept it a secret. That is my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:42 pm 
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I agree completely that this was mishandled. At least we still have a month though.

I also have to wonder if Gencon didn't have the fan support that it has and the awesome guys at Pasttimes, if it would be this same way. We knew about Gencon earlier, but if it were left in Wizards' hands to tell us about it... Let's just say I haven't seen any announcements on the SWM page on wizards.com for Gencon yet either.


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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:45 pm 
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so I take it from the above post you knew about this decision long ago?

EDIT: too slow....refrencing Boris not Sinja

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:46 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
shinja wrote:
Seriously, I don't even understand the point here. Its not advertised in any way, its on a horrible weekend at a convention that is way off the trail, and its a month away. Heck, I went to the PAX information and they don't have any events listed yet lol.


Ever since learning of the decision, I've been researching PAX. Yeah, it is off the trail, but not exactly unknown. There were something like 80,000 people there last year. Of course, most of them are digital gamers, but still.

The event is going to be a cluster dankferrik anyway. I realize I've had longer to digest this than most of you, but I am confident you will reach the same conclusion.

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The question is then, what means more, a "Championship" with 10 participants, or a "Masters" with 50+? I don't care about names, just the success of the events.


Well, I care about the name. Keep in mind that WotC has distinguished the tournament name "Championship" intentionally. They want this to be their marquee event; they just chose not to tell anyone where they are holding it ahead of time. Remember also that they told us we could NOT call anything at GenCon a Championship.

LMAO

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:47 pm 
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Realisticly the SWM community is so small we are small fry, back burner, after thought to Wizards.

This isn't a conspiracy against anyone. Or any Con.

Folks who are upset assumed the "defacto" championship was at GENCON, that assumption turned out to be technically invalid. I remember reading that no championship would be at GENCON a long time ago. In fact it will probably still be considered the championship by lots of you. So what's in a name? i think it lets some other region have a championship for once. instead of the mid west being the be all end all.

Putting it in their backyard makes sence. Frankly flying short hops costs about the same as long hops in the US(excluding international.) Not to mentione a months notice is the optimum for good airfaire longer than that actually costs more usually. 29 days to 14 days is the best window to make airfaire plans cost wise. So it's not too late if you are dead serious about this.

Also One months notice IS slightly better than last minute, zero hour, end of the world. Relax, tons of players couldn't make Gencon, tons can't make pax. Nothing is unfair to anyone.

No offence intended to anyone, but the conspiracy theories and drama over this seem over done a bit...

Mind you i'm totally biased, cause i couldn't afford to go to gencon, and can go to pax cause it's a mile from my house.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:56 pm 
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simone89 wrote:
so I take it from the above post you knew about this decision long ago?

EDIT: too slow....refrencing Boris not Sinja


Yes, I did. Last year, I helped Jim with a couple of events, and he had been working with Alan and Pastimes to plan this year. We wanted this year to be even better than the year before, and I knew (through talking to WotC people in November) that there would indeed be another Championship. When Jim and Alan began setting a schedule, Jim asked me to judge the Championship, and I agreed.

Then, the bankruptcy issue occurred, and there was a panic. Few may ever realize how close the bullet buzzed by, but we dodged it and WotC agreed to come. However, that was when we were told: we were not allowed to call the Saturday event a Championship because it was going to be held somewhere else. I was not told where initially, but Lobostele can back me up on this one, my deductive skills allowed me to ferret out the information without help from anyone. Now I've just been waiting for confirmation.

What's in a name, you ask? Apparently, a lot to WotC, if they won't even allow us the organizers and judges to call the damn tournament a "Championship."

I don't care about who judges what; my only gripe is that it was a super-secret move that will only hurt the concept of the event. 90 people turned out for it last year because it was highly publicized. At this point, who can afford to make the trip?

Is it a conspiracy to be sneaky? Nope, it's a conspiracy of incompetence and mismanagement. It's like they either don't want anyone to come, or don't care. Either way the result is the same.

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:58 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Even if you don't feel that way, a show of support for Jim would be not only well-deserved but also very appreciated. Jim, and Alan (of Pastimes) deserved far better.

And so does the entire community, but especially Jim for taking the reigns of the first championship last year.


I will be showing my support with my Butt and my Money, going to Gencon. Heck, they could hold the Championship in Bukina Faso and if it was being run by someone other than Jim and Passtimes, I would still go to Gencon. That's kinda been my point the entire time. Unless my way was played, I wouldn't ever miss Gencon's events because they are so well run, and its such a great experience, and that's the sole reason I attend, not for some random title that amounts to nothing more than being called the Tallest Midget. (No offense to any midgets out there).

The reason I argued with the "slap in the face thing" before is simply because I assumed that the reasons behind the switch were other than Jim doing a bad job. In fact, I still believe the reasons have nothing to do with Jim or Passtimes at all. So calling it a personal slap in the face to me is going too far.

Either way, I can't wait!!! I will see you all in just over two weeks, at the best four days of SWMs gaming thanks to Jim and Passtimes!!

Oh and Boris, my RPG character came out very very nice :)

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:59 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Is it a conspiracy to be sneaky? Nope, it's a conspiracy of incompetence and mismanagement. It's like they either don't want anyone to come, or don't care. Either way the result is the same.


This I tend to agree with. Hence why I said i don't really care about the PAX event. I care about the one you guys are running!

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:03 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
The reason I argued with the "slap in the face thing" before is simply because I assumed that the reasons behind the switch were other than Jim doing a bad job. In fact, I still believe the reasons have nothing to do with Jim or Passtimes at all. So calling it a personal slap in the face to me is going too far.


Taking it away from Jim, regardless of the reason, and moving it to a unknown Con (unknown as it relates to Star Wars Miniatures) without giving us ample time to plan, that is the slap in the face. I will never understand why they moved it, but I am going to pose the question at the seminar on Thursday night.

Quote:
Oh and Boris, my RPG character came out very very nice :)


Yeah, I still need background stuff from you guys on that. I think you are going to be very surprised at what I have planned; I know the people I've told about it were not expecting it... :P

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 Post subject: Re: 2008 Star Wars Miniatures Championship at PAX
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:12 pm 
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So anyway, politics aside (if that's possible), I'm excited for this event. I'm also excited to hear about what happens at Gencon. With a new set release (KotOR), the biggest U.S. SWM event (Gencon), and a new convention getting WotC SWM support (PAX), I think August is a great month to be a SWMGamer! :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:47 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
I was not told where initially, but Lobostele can back me up on this one, my deductive skills allowed me to ferret out the information without help from anyone. Now I've just been waiting for confirmation.


Yup, was the first thing I thought of when I saw the title of Shinja's thread. Excellent work, detective. :P

Quote:
I don't care about who judges what; my only gripe is that it was a super-secret move that will only hurt the concept of the event. 90 people turned out for it last year because it was highly publicized. At this point, who can afford to make the trip?


And that was exactly my point. If you're someone who gets paid overtime at work, you have to have at least a couple weeks to work a bunch of extra hours (if there's enough to do at work to justify that) . Then you have the time it takes for those extra hours to make it through the pay-roll system and you actually get paid for it. For me, it's usually at least 2 weeks before I see the cash from the overtime hours I work. And for a trip to Seattle including food, airfare, hotel, and convention fees, I'd probably have to work at least an extra 20-30 hours to cover that. For anybody who doesn't get paid any overtime, they have to alter their spending habits DRASTICALLY in order to save probably an extra $400 to attend this thing.

So, it's a GREAT thing to anyone who is local to Seattle, or was planning to go to PAX anyways. At this point, anyone who lives further than an easy driving distance away (which is, as I said before, a LARGE majority of the online community here) it is basically impossible to attend this event unless you have some extra cash already burning a hole in your pocket from something.

Quote:
Is it a conspiracy to be sneaky? Nope, it's a conspiracy of incompetence and mismanagement. It's like they either don't want anyone to come, or don't care. Either way the result is the same.


This is what worries me the most. Last year, WOTC completely removes Rob from contact with any of us, and offers no explanation, and even when several of us inquire as to his whereabouts at the Seminar at GenCon, we get no response at all. Around the same time, Dreamblade, this supposedly great new product that is going to be WOTC's new "big thing" basicaly tanks and they discontinue the game after pouring a TON of money into it. Then, they make a spectacular move with developing the Gleemax idea, and after barely a year, it falls apart as well. Now, to top it all off, they decide to thumb their nose at a large majority of the competitive SWM community with this business regarding the Championship.

Just really makes me question what the heck goes on in their management over there. On the other hand, I work for General Electric, supposedly one of Fortune 500's top companies to work for, and I see plenty of management problems so I guess I shouldn't expect so much out of other companies.

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