Well Dean quite frankly as long as WotC isn't losing you as a customer I really don't think they give a damn how you use the minis if it doesn't affect them getting your money. And given how resistant and difficult the DCI department has been to our collective pleas for them to show the competitive side of the game more respect over the last few years, they'd probably be grateful that they are off the hook.

I just think that by designing your own program you are essentially giving them the reward they are looking for. I'm not saying boycott of the game or anything like that - just trying to warn you that what you are talking about doing would be like me rewarding my cat by giving it the chicken bone off the plate on the kitchen counter that I spent 30 minutes yelling at it to stay away from beforehand.

Dean, I put that chicken bone in the trash.

Well, Dean, Dennis is much more eloquent than I am, but this is pretty much what I was trying to say on the phone the other night. I really don't think they will give a rat's a$$ if we have a program. I like the idea of being able to use something other than DCI, but I think they will be okay with it just as well.

More than okay with it I think they will throw a party at WotC HQ.

Personally, I do think it will have a bigger impact than one person (or in Dean's case 4) not buying minis.

No offense Boris, but I have never been convinced that "support with your pocketbook" or in particular, pulling it, has a great impact. What does WotC care if one guy stops buying? What if its 10, or 100. How many does it take until they notice?

But for the person who quits, it has a great deal of effect on them, they no longer get to participate in a great game. So you punish yourself with the hope that it punishes WotC. Each person has to make their own decision, and I respect yours in this case, I just don't think you will have as great of an impact as you do now, as a customer.

So to me, if Dean wants to start a new competitive tracking system, and can get if off the ground and make it successful, it could look like an embarrassment to DCI. That may have a much greater impact, especially coming from Dean. Couple i with emails and other contacts, and you have the potencial to really affect the situation.

IMO by boycotting DCI we the players would be doing them [wizos] a favor (as Boris has been saying).

Instead of being the "fly in the ointment" and continually asking them to give us the attention that we deserve, they would be able to say "Look at the DCI numbers, no one plays SWM."

They are going to masage the data around so that it works how they want it to work (case(s) in point, GenCon 07 being a "failure" and SWM players do not want competitve events).

I know it seems like we [the players] are flighting a losing battle against the "evil empire" but by being vocal that is the only way that we will recieve any attention.

I think that a boycott of DCI goes aginst what everyone has worked for these past few years.

Honestly, at this point, I'm not sure I agree or disagree with anyone, lol. I do agree with Bill in this case though, that you are punishing yourself as much as you are trying to punish the company. Boycotts only work if you can convince a very large number of people to join you. And even then, it may not work anyways. And as Bill pointed out, if you boycott buying the game at all, or you boycott DCI, then that makes WOTC almost happier, because then they can just say "well see, that validates our point that gamers who want something competitive go elsewhere".

I kind of see it like the way the Southern Baptist Convention has had their ongoing boycott of Disney for, geez, probably well over a decade now over the 'Gay Day' stuff. Has it hurt Disney at all? Doesn't seem like it. Any time I'm in those parks they seem as busy as ever (father-in-law works there, so we go probably once or twice a year).

How do you effectively change large groups like this? Usually from the inside. It takes time, and a good deal of effort, but that's how Dean has come to where he is in the current DCI organization. Mr. Schmadeka seems to be open to our opinions. Whether he understands or acts on any of them will remain to be seen. We also have the seminar at GenCon coming up. Hopefully Chris (the LFL rep) will be there again and we can chat with him about this kind of stuff. I can almost guarantee you that Rob would back us in terms of pushing the competitive side of things.

Finally, to top it off, if you boycott DCI, then there goes your access to League Kits, recognition for your LGS as a location for tournaments, any sort of official WOTC support for the times they do actually support the game (like the LOTF/KOTOR Day events). You'll lose out on all of that stuff.

I just don't really see the benefit in it. I personally think we'll have a much greater effect by continuing to be the squeaky wheel and offerring our help and opinions to improve the competitive side of the game.

WotC probably won't notice one person's absence, I agree. If anything, some of them will be glad to see the more competitive among us go away so they can go back to their Magic and D&D without some minority SWM player (regardless of the fact it is someone like me who spends $500 per set on average) hassling them about what they're going to do for the SWM community this month.

Bill, I am not trying to punish anyone, nor am I organizing a boycott or trying to get revenge. I'm just mentally drained from the fight. I feel like we have lost a fight we should never have had to fight in the first place. Everything we've accomplished has been a victory in ashes. All we and all I ever wanted was to have a successfully run DCI program for SWM with those of us who are really committed to the game leading the charge. If implemented correctly, the way we advised them, it would have been a win-win. Instead it will be a lose-lose as now most of us are talking about abandoning DCI events (or worse) and WotC loses its competitive players, which as someone else just pointed out they will use to defend their argument that SWM is a casual game (even though 2 years ago when Rob was still active on the boards they were considering otherwise).

And once the hardcore players are gone, the casual community that does in fact exist will either rally or it will fade, which means WotC will either cave or abandon the game. I don't want to be around to see that happen. I don't want to contribute more money to a terminally ill game. PAX is the nail in the coffin IMO.



There are other great games and there are still other people who buy and trade stuff locally. And I have more pieces now than I can keep up with as it is. Just because I, or anyone for that matter, doesn't have the "new" stuff doesn't mean that person can no longer play. There is plenty of game left in the products that have been released already, and years of enjoyment still waiting to be discovered.



I agree, it could have an impact, but not the sort you're looking for. What's that saying - be careful what you wish for because you might actually get it.

Aaron, my wife just told me to hold you captive until we get free passes for our next trip to Disney World!

LOL, my wife will be suspicious if I don't return from GenCon...

Not if you tell her that you may be held hostage.

If I were you, I'd start looking for those tickets.

First of all I never said I was quitting the game. I said I won't be buying any future product as long as the way they treat us remains status quo. That is a personal decision I am making for myself and I am not asking anyone else to do so. I still love the game for its own sake and plan to play with everything I have for as long as I am able, and am not selling my stuff. I also hope to make trades with people in the future. I'm just focusing my hobby dollars into other companies that I know are more supportive of me being their customer.

Secondly I was hoping to hold off on that being shared publicly because I don't want it to affect GenCon, but the cat is out of the bag. I intend to go to GenCon and give it my very best, and support everything DCI that I have promised to do to the best of my ability. I am not going to spend my vacation squawking or moaning about how DCI did this or did that to screw us the community over. It's not Alan's or Jim's fault, and they deserve every ounce of the promise I made to them to run events. It's going to be a great time next week, and I will leave my frustrations at home when I leave on Wednesday.

Thirdly, will my decision get WotC's attention? Absolutely not. A few people will miss me, a few will cheer, but none of it means anything. What it comes down to for me is that I just don't need to be so stressed out over something that is supposed to be fun. I'm not doing this to make a statement or to try to change anything. I've already tried to change things with positive actions like inviting Rob Watkins to participate in an AT-AT event and by encouraging participation in special-style events like Epic and Dynamic Duo, and I feel like there have been more successes than failures, overall. It's just that all of the failures are the fault of people like this Reid Schmedaka and Sarah Haines, and they are the ones calling the shots. They aren't listening, and nothing is going to change that. Nothing positive anyway, because I think they want a minimalist effort for SWM. It's easier to host the Championship at PAX than it is to tout it at GenCon.

Rob Watkins coming back is almost enough to make me reverse my decision. His absence, or better said - the absence of a vocal presence involved in the game's design - has been one of its biggest setbacks. I think if Rob had been talking to us all this time, most of the DCI disasters could have been avoided. I know Rob, and I know he really really cares about this game and its customers. It's his bread-and-butter, so to speak.

And Dean, don't kid yourself. When the day comes they decide to tank the game, money may or may not be a factor, and whether I stop buying or you stop buying will never even enter their minds when they make that decision. I'm old enough to know, and have seen enough to know, that most decisions to eliminate something or sell something off rarely have anything to do with real money.

Aaron was right about one thing, though. Without a DCI program through WotC, you may have a strong network in your area for monitoring tournament ratings. But you will lose the prize support and league kit access that you get currently.

More importantly, if it is successful, WotC will terminate it for everyone else. So unless you are going to sponsor endless supplies of repainted minis and possibly maps for any number of players, what you are proposing will do more damage than me choosing to spend my money elsewhere could ever come close to doing.

In particular, I would like to, or have someone if I am not able, to attend the Seminar at Gencon and point blank ask them, what they think about some of the most important competitive gamers and organizers, like their top rated DCI player, considering opting out of DCI and starting his own competitive system, where we will hold our own events and our own championship. And to point out that this is specifically a response to their lack of interest, lack of concern, and lack of knowledge of the market that we feel like we have no other choice.

And finally, I want to point out that marketing research based on a survey primarily to non-players of the game is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard. No wonder they think we all want it "casual"....

And sorry if I spoiled what you said Boris, I simply forgot where you posted it and assumed it was known already.... My bad on that one. But I am glad to hear you aren't quiting altogether either. It is a great game, and you are a big part of it. Hall of Fame in my book

Well it's okay. I think anyone with a brain has seen this coming for a while. Even my wife the other night asked me if I had finally decided to stop buying new sets, even though I really hadn't told her much of what was going on. She had just heard some, and I mean small portions, of my conversations with Jim about PAX.

I just don't want it to affect how anyone perceives my involvement at GenCon. I am going to go there and do the best job I can during the events I have agreed to judge, and I am not going to spend my vacation time bitching. I do enough of that the other 51 weeks of the year LOL. This is my vacation and I intend to enjoy it, and make sure everyone else that I interact with does too.

Well if you really want to get their attention you would need to open it up to Magic and to DDM as well as SWM. If you got enough people on board and had some nice prizes to distribute, you might really get their attention. More likely, though, they would just refocus their resources and lay off the entire OP department.

I keep saying it - as long as they are making all the money they are not going to care.

I still think you are getting them off the hook, which is probably why they do some of the stupid stuff they do.



It would be but as Mike (Gamer Zero) recently pointed out most of the WotC employees see a "torch-carrying mob" when they look at the message boards. I pointed out to him that the mob just wants WotC to put out the fires by listening and doing what we tell them.

I can't understand it, and I never will. If a group of people come to me and say, "Boris, we love your product, and will give you $500 each if you add this and this and this to it, and each of us will bring 10 friends with $500 each," why would I want to resist that?

But they do resist. All the time. I will never understand corporate mentality. Everything about it flies in the face of common sense.

Well that is a good point, but I guess what I want is to make them care. No matter how hopeless a cause it is, it's still what I think needs to happen.

I guess that's what it comes down to for me. I am not willing to do the work that I believe they are supposed to be doing, and after Aug. 17, I will no longer be willing to give them my money if they can't treat us any better. Will it make a difference to them? Nope, not in the slightest. But it's the right decision for me personally. I might change my mind (I'm a flip-flopper lol) if their attitude changes, but so far dealing with them has been a series of frustrations and disappointments, for the most part. Not every time, but alot.

This is all I am going to say about it.

Lol at Banning Dean. I don't think anyone at DCI knows our game well enough to know what to ban....

That's the bigger problem.

Anyways, we three agree there is a problem here, its just what to do about that is at issue. And I don't think there is a good solution. So I propose mine. Let's all get together next week to drink Beers and Bitch about it. That's the only one that will truly make things better

"More importantly, if it is successful, WotC will terminate it for everyone else."

That becomes a crucial issue. If the best players in the world play poker in a basement with no cameras and play for chips instead of cash. The game is awesome, the recognition and and payout are not.

Realisticly, if you plan to create something you have to do it better than DCI.

Will you run regional qualifiers? a Tour? then a championship? How about international events? How will you garner prize support? What can you do better than DCI?

I don't think unless you have some serious funds to poor into it, and you expect no return that it can be successful. Besides I'd imagine LFL and wizards could probably litigate you out of existance.

If the idea is based soley on players honesty and a web based application... Then it isn't likely to have much success.

I agree with folks that we need to come together as a community and put pressure on Wizards. BUT we need to do it from the inside. AND we need to realize we are a much smaller entity than their other games. If you have a limited resource pool, and 3 games to support, if 2/3 of those games generate 9/10th of your profits, which games get focus?

Honestly the Star Wars Mini's Competetive scene is tiny by comparison to those other games, and we are treated as such. You want it changed, recruit more players. We need to GROW the competetive community to compete with other games, that's where you should direct your efforts.

just my 2 cents.

Summed up as "If you can't beat 'em....Join 'em"

If the crux of your motivation is getting GENCon to be the champs then you are making the same kind of mistake. Wizards really big flaw was in late announcement of the championships. Period. Moving it shouldn't be the crux of the issue. I believe and this is just my opinion lots of you would be complaining even if this had been announced in January. To those people i say, you are part of the problem cause you want it only in your back yard and are willing to sacrifice gaining new players to do it.

PAX represents a HUGE possible market of new players to Wizards them pushing a big tourny there is a brilliant Idea to foster growth in the community.

The comparison of DDM to SWM at gencon 2007 with 110 invite only players, vs 90 open to anyone players, shows how much we need to grow. a Magic the gathering open tournament with 5k in prize money held anywhere in the country would have 300+ players easily. We as a community need to support ANYTHING that will increase the GROWTH of the competetive game. Multiple major tournaments is that growth, Masters at Gencon 2008, and Championships at PAX is one more mjor tournament than it was last year, right?

-Slie

Well I know I said I was done talking but I want to respond to this point. Resources and allocation are not the problem. It's about the application of those resources that is the problem. If you know that all of your competitive players are going to GenCon because you are known for holding your marquee "Championship" events there, why would you move the marquee event for one of the games you support to a convention where you've never done anything like that before, and without telling the competitive group? If you want them to come, then you have to TELL THEM. And not with only 4 weeks notice, and especially not to a convention on the other side of the country 2 weeks after the Con that you know they will be expecting you to bring the event to, based on past experience.

Damn Bill I am ready for that beer. LOL.

EDIT: As to you're "If you can't beat em, join 'em," I am incredibly offended by the inference of that statement. This is not a competition, we've been trying to work WITH them for 4 damn years. They have resisted every effort we have made to encourage them to take our money, and to make even more money. You just have no idea how much effort has gone into growing the game and in trying to work with WotC and DCI to do so, and they have resisted.

Some good has occurred, but not enough, and for every step forward we take, we take 2 back.

You're missing the critical piece, so I highlighted it. DnD has done their Champ at Gencon consistently every year for now 5 years I think. They have never once moved it. They did not have 110 the very first year of it, they had like 25. I was there sharing the same 10 tables with them.

Second, its invite only. You and WotC are using the false cause fallacy that because one is "Open" and the other "Closed" that the Open should have more people in it. Complete garbage of a premise, and I am pissed off the guy even tried this idiotic logic. They friggin payed the way for most of the DnD players. I got zip, zero, zilch and had to pay $500+ to participate out of my own pocket, and my trip was one of the cheaper ones since I live 4 hours away from Indy. None of our 90 players were payed anything to show up. You pay the way for even 50 SWMs players and I guarantee you we hit 200 - 300 after 5 years. Not to mention the attendance of each regional qualifier hitting the 50-70 marks.

The timing of the announcement is a major issue, however, the location and reason for the switch that they have claimed (getting new casual players) are also issues. I am sorry, it isn't about some selfish, "My back yard" kind of motive. I resent you telling me that's why I am pissed. Its because they moved it and none, I repeat, none of their other games. Even Dreamblade has its championship at Gencon this year, and its dead.... Its also the nature of the Con they moved it to. Gencon is the gaming convention of the year across the globe. It is made for games like MAgic, DnD, etc. PAX is a video gaming convention. They have no history with it.

So in short, you are wrong, we don't have two major tourney's this year, and it doesn't represent moving forward. We have one major tourney, a bunch of pissed off fans, a tourney called the Championship which will inevitably fail, and a couple of WotC execs who have no idea what they are doing and should be fired.

And after talking to Sarah and Co., I am pretty sure we may all need a beer, and Dean can have his Dr. Pepper.