No Dean you're not getting paranoid. We had our largest turnout this saturday at my LGS (a whole 6 players including myself!) I saw 2 Dadonna/HanGH/Mara Jedi/Katarn squads (which I managed to take a loss against both, but that is another story) Imp SS Commandos, a Kota-buffed fringe squad, and a Rebel charging melee squad. I played 200 point San Hill and while both games were excruciatingly close I came up short against San's successor, General Dodonna. This is the third week in a row the same two guys have run NR Dodonna triple threat squads, and they are starting to beat me. Part of this is to do with me trying out different builds that I've never played before that are simply not as strong as the NR build. The player who is ranked last in the State of Maine (where I am from) went 4-0 today, and I am sick of seeing NR squads in 200. the same player has taken me out the last two weeks and I am eagerly looking forward for our first 150 next saturday. I don't think you are going crazy Dean, because even in my small neck of the woods, I am seeing all the same builds each week and its getting old fast.

I don't think it's a new phenomenon. I remember a couple years ago whenever a squad was posted for critique, the response was always "put Aurra Sing in there". Then it was Vader, JH. R2-astro became a staple in any Republic build, etc. As more pieces became available, the move now is to more synergy and there are limited numbers of CEs that are worthwhile.

Some of the reasons for the repeated squads has to do with a player who read the squad critique threads and everyone seems to gravitate to a few types of builds. That player takes the idea of one of the squads, has success at the LGS and next time there are three more. Also, anyone who can only get certain pieces are going to gravitate to the ones that are posted most often in threads. I'm not saying this is not a successful strategy, just will result in less variety overall. It's no different in pro football, for example. One team does well and the next year everyone is running the same style offense.

I think more people are now playing the 200 format, so the meta-squads are being developed more for that level. If the level went up, it would just be a matter of time until it happened again. It's not good or bad for the game, just a natural progression.

If you are getting stale, try changing up the restrictions every few months for tourneys. Faction pure, huges only, only X number of uniques, etc. It brings new figures to the table and sometimes people remember using someone and the next time builds around that previously forsaken figure.

Well, one thing that I do is I keep a sheet with a list of all of the minis on it, and I make sure that I play every mini. Even as long as Legacy has been out, I still have 2 more squads left before I have every mini played, a Sep with Dooku and a Sith with Nihl. Here's what i played today:

Thrawn
Mas
Imp Gov Tarkin
Moff Veed (needed to play him, and the only reason to EVER play him is if you have Imp gov tarkin.)
Emperor Fel (quad Opp with Thrawn/Tarkin, hehehehe...)
#21 Imp Knight (the other Imperial I needed to play)
Storm Commando
BBSV
Raxus prime Trooper

5 Commanders, 4 followers
I faced: NR Han/Shado/Corran/Karrde and won handily, even with his double Disrupt (using Thrawn aggressively, which I normally do. Silly Jedi. )
Game 2 was against Republic SS with RCTS. I ALMOST won that match. My last attack was Mas cunning on his RCTS with 20 HP left. I needed an 8, rolled a 6. Would have won me the game.
Game 3 was against VAU and RS Boba, which I won. (Fel almost single handedly took them both out with quad Opps.)
Game 4 was against Lady H with her Rebel SS with Xizor and Dodanna. That was a struggle, but I won.

So, I had 9 activations, and if I roll an 8 or higher in game 2, I go 4-0 with a non-meta squad.

My point is you don't need to play meta squads in order to be effective. Forcing myself to play every mini allows me to know what every mini does. It forces me to play a different squad (and usually faction) every week, and it keeps it fun.

And I'm Vassal-ed out. 3 straight games where the opponent gets 5+ crits, when I normally won't get 5 crits in an entire tournament really makes me question the validity of play testing on vassal.

Our LGS generally always does 200s and we're seeing the same problems again.

When I started playing in Des Moines, that's what it was like. We had a few super competitive people who played nothing but meta and only wanted to destroy everyone else, even if they had to cheat doing it, and they occasionally did. We had one guy so bad about this that he'd scream at his children if they beat him or managed to pull a fast one on him. It was miserable. Finally most of those people either quit the game or lightened up (child screamer quit). So for about 9 months to a year now, we have one big meta gamer but everyone else play good, but different squads. People have felt more free to get creative, try new and risky ideas sometimes successfully, sometimes not. I'll go out on a limb and speak for everyone here, but we were happier. Rarely did one person play the same squad two weeks in a row, usually not even the same faction. Sure, everyone had their favorite faction and pieces they played more often, but there was variety!

Enter a couple of newbies. These two do nothing but play the same couple squads each week, and tend to now beat everyone. To deal with this everyone is starting to play meta again. If you don't want to get the crap kicked out of you by a n00b, that's what you have to do. I am so bored, frustrated, and miserable. Doug and I were talking about this last night. I'm considering taking a break from our normal Sunday games because I'm not having fun anymore. I still love the game and really want to play, but not against these people. The squad building freedom is gone. Forget trying something new or risky, you'll get the crap kicked out of you. While I don't have to win constantly to have a good time, doing nothing but losing isn't very fun. This is why I shy away from big tournaments (this Gen Con aside). Being forced to play one of 4 different squads isn't fun.

As for Dodonna, I don't have an issue with him. He's not a game winning piece IMO. I toss him in a lot of my squads because he's a cheap and potentially very useful piece. If I have really low activations he's a must or I use him as a counter to San Hill type squads. If activations are about equal I may not make use of him at all. He's not a Mas type piece IMO in that he gives you a huge advantage, he's more defensive than anything else. I liken him to Han Rogue. They takes away your opponent's advantage, rather than giving you an advantage, more leveling the playing field than anything else.

Dean, I too am starting to feel that way about this game. The "fun factor" may not be gone completely, but it's not the top element of the game anymore. The weird interactions driven by the surprise theme WotC embraced this year with the game has a lot to do with it for me.

At our LGS, we mix it up. 100, 150, 200. Sometimes DCI, sometimes not. Next week they're playing Tile Wars, and eventually we will play Epic (the first time at our store as a tournament event).

Last week, it was 100 point DCI. I got a bye the first round, and ended 2-1. To be honest, as I sat down to play game 2, I suddenly realized I just didn't care one way or the other how it turned out. Win, lose, I didn't even feel like I was having fun with it the way I did in all of 2005 and 2006. The fun is the most important part to me. I can't remember the last time I played a mass battle event, probably right after GenCon, and most of my skirmish squads all start out with the same character based on what faction I'm playing. I can't make myself play just anything because too many of the pieces are inferior designs based on what I know I will face. I don't mind losing if I get beat as long as I play my best and build a decent squad, but I am not going to design something wacky that is auto-loss. That is just a waste of time for me and my opponent, as we would only be going through the motions. No fun in that, IMO.

That's why I won't be doing much of anything with SWM at GenCon, outside of my judging commitments for Moses and league play. I am going to go and do stuff I don't normally get to do at my LGS.

I whole heartedly understand where you guys are coming from. That's why we mix things up quite frequently at our LGS. We have a few guys that consistently play the same stuff all the time, and one guy in particular that is highly competitive, and plays whatever he feels is the best. That used to be Boba BH in just about anything, and lately it's switched to be Han GH, Dodonna, AND Boba BH. They are definitely great squads, and since most of us are all very competitive players, we aren't bothered by it too much. But we also throw in the odd build challenges here and there in order to mix things up, and we find that it really helps things stay fresh. Of course, at the moment, we're doing more straight up DCI to prep for the GenCon tournaments, but as soon as GenCon is over we'll probably go back to doing maybe 1 or 2 serious events per month, and doing other fun things instead.

We've done EPIC 3 different times now in the last 9 months, Tile Wars two or three times, Dynamic Duo a couple times, and we even tried Dynamic Duo on Tiles! We did Terrific Trio at least once, we've challenged people to build 'Famous Pairs' squads, or all non-Uniques. We did a challenge around New Years that we called 'Countdown' where everyone's squad HAD to contain the Muun Tactics Broker ('course, that might not work quite so well with Han GH so prevalent now). We do Proxy Sealed events probably at least once every other month. We even tried doing a Proxy Sealed Draft just a couple weeks ago for the first time, and everybody really enjoyed it. We have enough people at our venue that we can do the Proxy Sealed stuff easily and anybody who doesn't have all the pieces can easily borrow stuff.

So far, I haven't really noticed anybody getting overly bored with anything in our group. Maybe we just have a group that thrives on competition more than others. Then again, we never do the same thing two weeks in a row too, so that might help. I would think that if we ran 200 points EVERY single week, it would get stale in our group as well.

You know, I find it hard to be creative with squads in the game now too. As far as I am concerned the most fun I ever had playing a competitive squad was right after the release of Champions (that's been a long time ago now). Even then my squad was more of a fun squad than anything with Yoda doing some stuns and Dash Rendar using Admiral Akbar for Opportunist attacks. In the enviornment you have now, those gimmicks don't stand a chance. There are about 4-5 different strategies, and if you go for a gimmick, then more often then not, you lose.

The hardcore strategies have been granted more than a slight competitive advantage. In order for the game to make a turn around I believe we need to see a return to power pieces. But with tempo control figures being so cheap, and so abundant I wonder what the viability would be even then.

According to several people the best builds in the game now are the triple threat builds: (Mara, Kyle, Han + support or Aurra, Tyranus, Fett + support). And we see the formula for success. Tempo control + Initiative Control + Counter Initiative Control + a few people to deal some damage. Because this formula is so clear and easily defined it makes it very difficult to stray from it. (By the way similar things could be done in Rebel and Imperials, tier 2 because it costs more to accomplish the goals)

It's a subtle difference. You still like to play because you are a superior player who wins week after week after week. Imagine how us average players must feel when faced with the same level of boredom as you. It is about the fact that it's the same characters and same squads time after time, but when your win/loss ratio drops to about 60/40 because the weeks you want to play quirky stuff you don't have a chance in hell... well that's where I am at with this. I AM bored with the game because it's been "solved."

A handful of squads and characters reign supreme, and there's nothing really left to discover.

I guess I'm pretty fortunate in our little group then. Rarely does anyone play the same squad (almost never). Our big problem is getting enough players with the free time just once a month.

Are there any other gaming stores to try within reasonable driving distances? I know when I have tried out other areas here in Ohio, the play styles are very different from area to area and maybe you can find another group for the occasional game variety.

Would more characters with Disruptive help? Is it just the CE combinations that you are seeing making things stale? Here's hoping for more options (maybe more synergy with older pieces) in the next set.

I don't have much of a problem seeing the same squads over and over because of the way my LGS runs tournies. We get them once a week but they alternate between DCI builds and various house rules builds each week. Within that on the DCI weeks they cycle between 100, 150, and 200 points. That means we only play a particular DCI legal point total once every 6 weeks. That in turn means once a set comes out we only play each point total about three times before the next set comes out with a new batch of minis everyone wants to try out in new squads.

This seems like a smart way to run things to keep it fresh.....

Its been a pretty concerted effort by the designers to restrict the Meta over the last two sets.

With the addition of the MTB and a ton of disruptive in TFU it seems like the strength of play was going to fall back onto stand alone figs.

This was only increased in LotF where even more disruptive and strong stand alone figures were released. It leaves you with a fairly rigid idea of what kinds of squads can compete and what you need to do in order to challenge the top Meta.

The problem is that the top meta has such an advantage over the rest of the field that there are only about 3 viable factions.

This isn't a new fact of this game, its seems to be a revolving 4-5 faction list.

Its the 1st time that the NR has become top tier (exception perhaps being Crubls but that did nothing at gen con) and this has been done by adding figs that scream "PLAY ME!"
Not to mention the addition of general dodonna that is just a ludicrously automatic figure to put into any NR/Rebel squad
Its such an obvious step wizards has taken that its hard not to think that they have some scheme in mind for the release of KotOR like the addition of cheap fringe piece with reinforcements on the roll of a 1 ro something.

There are meta Shakers in every setand KotOR won't be any different, if your bored of the current state of the game you should be eagerly antcapating KotOR to shake this stuff up.

Also, if your bored and you think this game is 'solved' then try and come up with squads that can compete with triple threat etc that arn't your normal build. You should be able to shake up your local meta at the very least (exception being Dean where it seems he could run a squad of Twilek scoundrels and win and so his group doesn't really pay attention to what he plays week to week.)

Well, if I know someone plays the same squads week in and week out, say Han and Boba, I bring a Rodian BSV and Mas, and maybe for a surprise even Ephant Mon. Who plays Ephant Mon? I mean really? But for 11 points, now all of my fringe characters can target them regardless of targeting rules, and we're all familiar with the RBSV. Now Han and Boba don't seem like an auto win, and you don't even have to resort to super stealth to do it. My thought is that every squad can be countered, and I would take it as a challenge to make squads that will work against those who bring the same squads every time.

Also, I think with a new set coming out, all of the old good squads get thrown away. Take for instance the Typho/Med Droid/Naboo soldier/CS Yoda squad. That squad can soak up some serious damage, and if you put some good damage doers in there, it works really well. The trouble is, the last time I played that squad was when Champions came out, adding Depa, JWM, Sev. With new sets, you feel like you have to have new pieces in there to be competitive, but it might be fun to bring back some of the oldies but goodies with or without new pieces in them.

You don't honestly think I haven't tried, do you? Almost of my concepts that won on their initial "surprise run" have lost in subsequent events, and the ones that remained consistently tough to beat developed as an "if you can't beat em, join em" approach.

Looks like there might be some confusion with this, what homer_sapien means about house rules isn't to change the DCI gameplay rules (ie gambit, not changing squads between rounds, not cheating and pulling a 24 pt figure with Reinforcements 20...). It's to implement squad building restrictions which change with each event. To do this successfully, you do need to make sure everyone is aware of the coming tournament's restrictions.

What we usually do at our local LGS is, at the end of the tournament, we figure out what we want to try out at the next tournament. Once we've decided on that, we make sure everyone in attendance is aware, and we put up the notice on the board at the LGS. It works just fine so long as everyone is aware, but I can understand it can be difficult if you have alot of players who only occasionally show up, or if you happen to get new people dropping by every now and then. If you have a good regular group of gamers though, it's great and really keeps things interesting. We've been doing this for years, and I can't say I've gotten bored with this game at all

One of my favourite formats (but one of the more confusing ones):

- Build 2 x 75pt squads. Take one of your opponent's 75pt squads to add to your own, and you end up with a combined 150pt squad. You have no idea what exactly you'll end up playing! You don't need to be playing power pieces either, you can show up with 2 totally worthless 75pt squads if you want and still do just fine.

Yes free time does seem to be our problem. I also think not having hyper competive players allows for us to try differnt squads because the top net decks are harldy ever played. I too would get bored facing the same thing every week.

Exactly. We don't use any house rules either at ACME (Yotta Quest is a bit different, but even then, people are pretty lax). We never change the basics of the game, and at ACME, there's always a time limit and we play with gambit. Oftentimes, the time limit is much less than an hour as well, as we usually try to squeeze in 4 games in 3 to 3.5 hours (for instance, we often run 100 point games in 30 minutes and have little trouble with everyone finishing).

We aren't saying to make huge house rule changes, just add in 'challenges' for each week. For this week, play only with melee characters. For this week, squad has to be faction pure (usually allow no all-Fringe squads, but let people include an Ugo or two to avoid Override auto-win problems). For a different week you have a theme of some sort. At Yotta Quest, things get a little more wacky sometimes (see the Cincinnati OH Events thread, and the Father's Day build) but even then, it's a matter of letting people know ahead of time what the plan is.

And at both our stores, everyone is 100% aware of the fact that if we have somebody new show up at the store, who didn't know ahead of time, then we either plan for everyone to switch to just regular DCI builds for the night, or allow the newcomer to play with whatever they brought, and the rest of us stick to our 'challenge'. Honestly, if someone really put up a fuss about it, I don't think we'd ever force anyone to play the 'challenge' ideas, but even the guys that are uber-competitive and play the nastiest squads they can every week still join in the fun of rising to the 'challenge'. Sometimes those uber-competitive guys get frustrated because they don't know how to build good squads to meet the extra restrictions, but not once have I had anyone come to me and actually complain about not wanting to do the special builds like that.

MANY people hae asked me over the years how we do it in Cincinnati,
and Lobostele hit on it
make people aware of it... but as many of you can attest- (and Lobo has been helping me out here)
We make plans a Full MONTH in advance (as best as we can)
that way, the dad and son or rookie with dreams of Uber cool "Theme builds" knows which week they wil have the most fun
not that they are ever turned away on a Strict DCI night... but so they know Well in advance

an amendment to what Lobo said about Cinci- the only Current "house rules" is on maps
1. ACME (more compedative Enviroment) is trying to ONLY use the Gen Con designated maps for the 150 game
2. In an effort to help support Jedicartographer and get more maps into new players hands, we allow JC maps at Yotta Quest

and again, if anyone is opposed - it's an easy switch

OK, that's probably the only house rule we're running as well: it's 150 legal maps + JC's map. I'd be curious how many venues running DCI registered events are doing this

I think the most important thing really is the people. I've played in DCI SWM tournaments on three continents now, and I'd consider the group at my LGS to be the most competitive group I've played with. That said, competitiveness doesn't get in the way of having fun, and people are generally having fun trying to do their best with Tier 2 squads when we play regular DCI.

Of course, everyone tries to find the most competitive squad that fits the squad building challenges when we run those

Based on the some of the thoughts hit on by the OP-
I'd like to see a "Restricted" and "Unrestricted" option for the DCI Software
(this is in lieu of what WOTC has on the plans)

When a Store with a reasonable reputation want to run those afore mentioned "Challenge builds" they can sanction them diffrently, RESTRICTED ; get the Credit the store needs for running organized evfents and have it shown on the Tournament Locator and players could get some kind of ranking/rating in addition for participating in "additonal" formats