I've been thinking about the 200pt format since the release of LotF and I think its more restricted at the top than it has been in the recent past. I don't view this as a bad thing, because there are still literally a ton of variants and options out there to play with. And of course 200 is a relatively forgiving format in DCI play so that you can often afford a mistake or two and still come out on top.

Never the less, I would probably rank the top factions for 200 (1 squad variant is all I am requiring to make the rank here) as follows:

1. Seps
San, Tyranus, Aurra, Boba MTB potencial (Key is in the MTB counter built in, and the counter to San's MTB in NTMTOs also typically runs disruptive - which lets you get out from under San's CE very easily when you need to).

2. NR
Kyle, Han GA, Mara, Lobot, MTB (or something like it) - NTMTOs and MTB with cunning attackers who can hit hard. Against San is the worst matchup as they likely are not as dependent on init as you are. But skill and a little luck will still determine the outcome.

3. Rebels
Cannon squads (Han, Luke's SS, LandS, Boba Cannons, etc) and Loda squads (usually with Han Rogue). This is one faction where literally 10-12 different squads (and variants) are probably viable contenders. But they all function around two main principles. Extra shots granted by Princess Leia and/or the Bothan Noble, or alternatively, the ultimate shut down squads with Loda (usually with Han Rogue and Leia/Noble, Disruptive, Recon/MTB, etc).

4. Imps
B&B SS is about the best of the best for Imps here. I still keep my hopes up for Piett squads to compete, but its getting tougher for them all the time with all the disruptive out there. Kyle really hurts Piett squads.

5. Sith
Exar with the MTB. This one is tough. I think its up there because I run it and love it. I might not be right. While I haven't nailed down my favorite support to a tee yet, its something like Exar, Aurra, Sly Moore, Swoop, Lobot and the MTB. Not necessarily all that affected by losing the MTB like the other MTB squads can be because it has the transfer gimmick with Sly. The key for me, has really been using sly effectively with both Aurra and Exar. Several other interesting variants out there as well (Lando DS, Cade Skywalker, Boba Merc, etc.)

6. Vong
JHs backed with a Boba of choice, and MTB support. Same deal as above. Not killed by losing the MTB, but have to be played well in the early rounds. Definitely can compete in the right hands.

7. Republic
Still has some neat tricks, R2 and Jedi are still the keys

8. Mandos and OR still struggle against the best.

1-3 are pretty much dead even, with slight advantages as I listed them. 4-6 also can compete quite well with the right builds. Oddly, Republic is not doing well at the moment, and even though the Mandos and OR got some new tricks, its still a bit of an uphill battle for the moment (of course Kotor is coming for them soon enough.)

So, from what I can see, the most dominate ability in the game at this time is 1. Tactics Broker which then causes 2. NTMTOs and 3. Reserves on a 1, to play bigger rolls in the meta. That's how I see 200 breaking down at this point. Let me know what you think of my analysis.

i'll just post my reply direct from gleemax

I pretty much agree with you Bill.

The Seps with San have an in built MTB counter while running their own is only impeded by NTMTO.

NR have nasty beats that coupled with NTMTO/MTB get very potent and they also have tempo control with an immense amount of disruptive

Rebels also have NTMTO and also tempo control with a fair amount of disruptive.

Its almost like a 3 way tie at the top

The most interesting thing about the game at the top is that initiative falls back to rebel storm style.
Its all 50/50 (barring recon on the NR/rebs) due to NTMTO and San preventing the MTB (and MT).
Its like when you play all out meta competitive you should be even on init and the game will come down to one initiative.
Rebels and NR have the best chance of winning the game on one init because they can choose 1 or two activations.
Even though you can place San in disruptive to get your 1-2 punch you are really relying on your opponent to give you that opportunity.

Imperials have fewer options at the moment. They either play thrawn with Tarkin and try to engineer a mid round strike or they play ozzel and swarm so much that they can get opportunist strikes late round lessening the impact of init but, as you said bill, disruptive hampers the swarms powers. Its why ithorian/han st swarms with dodonna arn't as effective as they might be.

Republic seem to have taken a back seat this set. They don't have the init control or the 1st strike capability of the rebels/seps or NR.

Vong have good survivability and cheap power but its so easy to make a squad that puts 120+ dmg in one phase with many factions that even the monster JHs go down fast.

One thing that is not mentioned is init phase movement which i believe has not reached its potential.

Imperials can use a Nym/thrawn/mas gotal swarm that might be able to take the sting out of a late round NR/SEP/rebel set up. Sith have Revan and Cadeus to play the same tricks and republic have a lot of suprise move. ANyone can use boba merc who is the best in that game at this trick
I don't think this tactic has reached its peak yet and i'm not sure the figs available can counter the init control of the rebels, NR and seps. It would take a very keen minded player to avoid the bludgeoning that MTB squads allow. Perhaps the best NR/sep and rebel squads actually use boba merc for init control and set up you can't avoid.

This is what I was about to say too, Bill. You talk about NR struggling against San, but ignored Dodonna. He puts the game back on level playing field vs. San, and gives Rebels and NR a stronger position vs. Imperial SS. Vong can overwhelm when the dice roll their way, but I think they are very outmatched by the fact that every other faction, even Separatists, have better Synergy with the top-tier Fringe pieces.



I haven't found the right mix for them yet.

Has anyone thought about exar kun with the caamasi noble.

Remember I said 1-3 are almost all tied. I went specifically in the order I chose based on the criteria I mentioned, but its not like I'm saying you show up with NR and your opponent pulls out San Hill and you quit.....

I mentioned the Bothan for Rebels mainly as its more significant there. I understand one can be added to the NR with Garm. But that's not a regular build that would be considered top tier by me, so it didn't make my list. Not that its bad at all, its just not as good as the options I mentioned.

As far as Dodonna leveling the field of play with San, that's not quite true. You need Dodonna and either a 30-50pt Han to put them back to even with Seps. Luckily those Hans are pretty solid, but they are not = to what the Seps get for the same cost. Beyond that, Seps have a great activator and overall fighter in Tyranus, for the Rebels to have the same, they would have to run two figures. Cost for cost, the synergy they can run at 200 to me puts them at a slight advantage because of the cheapness of the starting price of 10 for San Hill.

Well pairing Dodonna with the elements you mention is what I am talking about.

well in fairness to boris the seps don't have a great deal of variety to choose from either.

Boba merc/BH, Aurra JH, sideous, Tyrannus and perhaps Maul and then your gonna have to get pretty creative with your choices.

It sharpens to a point at the top end. Furthermore, the seps do suffer from a lack of disruptive (cheap disruptive anyway) which leaves them open to get taken down by t1.5 threats.

I think that Black and Blue Superstealth is better than you give it credit for. I think it certainly has an easier time against separatists who have no way to counteract the superstealth. It's biggest problem is Kyle Katarn/Han GH combo squads, and those are not at a huge advantage.

Why would I have trouble with it? Seps have activation control, init control and are primarily figures who want to be up close anyways.

While I agree, that Kyle/Han is SS biggest problem, its enough of a problem that in a big tournament you will see it, as its very very good.

Again, recognize that I am not claiming some level of superiority that squad X cannot compete. I am merely ranking the top builds as I see them. I am probably dealing with percentage point differences in effectiveness. For example, I might say in a given matchup A vs. B the advantage is 40% - 60%. But in another B vs C squad C has a 52%-48% advantage. Then finally, in the A vs. C matchup, squad A has a 55% - 45% advantage. So I would rank them as B>C>A.

Now, I think its also important to remember that I do understand LV B&B with Storm Commandos pretty darn well. Adding Calixte just makes it somewhat easier to play, but doesn't significantly alter how you play against it.

this was posted over at wizards, i thought i'd psot it here incase people don't read wizards boards.

Ok i'm gonna break this discussion into specific squads based on squads that have been seen winning tourneys and the theories here. Perhaps this might give people a better idea of what shapes the meta.

Sepratists

So with the Seps being at the top of Bills list, here is probably the best squad type as posted by him earlier

Boba Merc
Tyrannus LotDS
Aurra Sing JH
Lobot
San
5 uggies

Init control, MTB engine, anti MTB piece, cunning and stun. Powerful squad but not without draw backs, i.e. stun is a force power, unlikely to get it off more than once. The set up phase should eradicate one of your opponents key pieces.

Another sep squad that has done well is the dual Teolosian Squad. Which is about the only other seperatist style squad that seems to function well. Its tough to fit an MTB engine in it without losing a key piece though (BDO, Deliah, Sideous or the overseer) so its not exactly the mechanic that is being proposed as exerting the most meta pressure. But with san being an MTB blocker your initiative woes fall to thrawn. B&B SS can probably handly this so its probably not T1 but still worth a mention though.

76 Telosian Tank Droid x2
36 Darth Sidious
33 Deliah Blue
16 Geonosian Overseer
10 San Hill
9 Battle Droid Officer
8 Battle Droid x2
12 Ugnaught Demolitionist x4

New republic

The New Republic has a number of options available to itself but based on the NTMTO/MTB engine they would have to include either Han GH or Han rogue/Jaina. In most situations i believe Han GH to be superior because of his well rounded stats. Here are a couple of what i consider top NR squads

Kyle
Han GH
Mara Jedi
Lobot
Dodonna
5 x uggies

Double disruptive, MTB engine and lots of power.

Boba Merc
Han GH
Garm
Lobot
Dodonna
gran
3 x uggies

Still with the MTB but no Melee and Han carries a much larger role in the squad. Garm brings what you need to combat but this squad relies a lot on 2 figs to work.

The meta pressure of NR is the Han GH/MTB engine with cunning to boot. There still is not a great deal of variety with the NR

Rebel

The rebel have so many choices of viable squad options its difficult to narrow down options but with the nature of the discussion i'll narrow it down based on Han rogue + MTB. Cannon squads are always dangerous but they lack the NTMTO security and so may suffer against NR Han GH squads.

Loda
Han Rogue
Lobot
Princess Leia
R2pO
Bothan
Dodonna
3x uggie

This is Loda V the world but with the extra punch he and Rogue gets as well as the stun and push and a lot of force he should be able to compete. A theoretical squad. Loda has good defense against Tyarannus' stun, LV assault, Mara's Assault, and most ranged pieces. With leia and noble he can do 130 at any point in the roun from 12 spaces. HE can also dish out dmg WHILE stunning you which is a game winner. Disruptive hampers this squad but then Han can actually snipe reasonably well with Leia.

Boba BH with the Bothans' must have its place somewhere with quad disintegration. I've added the snowspeeder to this build and no MTB but there is a lot of room for movement. The snowspeeder does well against a lot of squads so i've included it although this might not be the best build for it. A speeder with deliah and chewie hoth healing is also difficult to deal with.

Boba Fett, Bounty Hunter
Luke's Snowspeeder
Han Solo, Rogue
C-3PO and R2-D2
Bothan Noble
General Dodonna
Mon Calamari Tech Specialist
Ugnaught Demolitionist x5

Imperial

Lord Vader
Grand Admiral Thrawn
Moff Nyna Calixte
Storm Commando x2
Mas Amedda
Wicket
Gran Raider x6

This has won many tournaments as described by Luke Skywalker on swmgamers.com (14-2 i think is the squads record). Its a very tough squad that exerts an enormous amount of pressure on the 200 point meta. In a game without MTB, NTMTO or tempo control this would probably be top. The SCs with cunning, advantageous and Nyna's CE get 50 dmg a pop on stealthers. Luckily they have to encroach within 6 squares of a stealth piece to do so. This squad is probably the reason disruptive is important at 200 (i've added it to every squad above). ALthough disruptive doesn't hinder LV's potential too much it can hamper the grans and SCs to the point where they can get picked off. Disruptive can also 'cage' pieces so they are no longer swappable.
However, with 2 powerful ranged pieces and the brutal capabilities of LV who is very well designed to deal with a lot of the newly introduced pieces
It a hard squad to face and should definitely be considered when building for a tourney.

Vong
The new vong centers around the new JH as both offensive pieces and staying power. The vongs pressure on the meta is to require squads to do a lot more dmg per shot. The JHs crab armor 6 puts a new weight on the need to hit for 30 which means you can take a JH down in 4 shots. Otherwise your 20 dmg hits become 10 dmg and soon your surrounded by purple people eaters. There are a lot of varieties but this is a squad posted by dnmiller which he won a tourney with and optimizes the style of build a competitive vong build.

3 Vong JH's
Shaper
Boba Enforcer
Nom
Lobot
3 Vong Advance Scouts

The squad has 2 good ranged threats (Nom and Boba) and a 'hidden' shaper to support the JH beasts at the front. Lobot will probably bring in 4 grans here but with a bit of tayloring you could easily fit an MTB engine (lose a scout add 2 uggies or just take the MTB for 4 rounds of MTB).

I'm gonna stop here because i feel the rest of the factions need to adapt to the types of squads posted here. I'm not sure the other factions really add a lot of weight to the meta although some can compete with certain squads.

This is also not an exhaustive list, some of the squads here are theoretical and might not actually be top tier but i've tried to add squads that at least follow the designs of what this thread has talked about.

I think Fingers has really hit the nail on the head with his analysis, I do feel there is one squad in the Meta that is not mentioned in your post and feel that it does deserve mention.

Han Stormtrooper Armor
Princess Leia, Hoth commander
Ithorian commander
General Dodonna
3x Ugnaught Demolitionist
Wicket
17x Aqualish Assassin

The rebel Swarm. This squad is why disruptive is so necessary in the 200 point Meta. This squad can defeat most of the above squads mentioned in Fingers post because 17 pieces are hard to drop, and if you do not have disruptive, they come back 1/4 of the time. So this ffetively has 21 assassins (more or less depending on rolls).

I thought this at least deserved some mention in this thread.

Also in the Rebels, you have competitive cannon Squads with NTMTO by using either Luke's Landspeeder or Luke's Snowspeeder with Han Rogue and MtB engine. These cause lots of damage and in general the Landspeeder will usually work better because it is easier for leia and the bothans to keep up.