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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:27 pm 
Name Calling Internet Bully
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I think its impossible. There is no way to reasonably measure Venue strength. SWMs is too sparce of a game across the country to even have DCI work well, so how do you think a few hundred of us on this site can do better?

I certainly understand your thought process, but I dont see what we can do about it. Most of the top DCI ranked players are pretty good players. In fact, I looked through the top 40 dci people in the USA and 15 of them I know for sure were at Gencon.

There are so many disparities its hard to even think of how we could fix it. For example, a lot of places play dci only once per month, some never, some weekly. When its not "official" people often play odd squads. How do you judge someone winning or losing with a crap squad?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:32 pm 
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I have to agree with Billiv there... measuring venue strength will be no mean feat. LGSs vary SO widely... as does participation.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:43 pm 
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dnemiller wrote:
base Kzoo as a 1 and go from there


But what does that mean really? Sure they have a lot of very good players there, probably the largest group of good competative SWM gamers. But when the Chicago three (Me, Deri, and Matt) went over there for a tourney, we took 1, 3 and 5 I think.

At Gencon, we had two top 8s, and two top 16s in the champ. Deri, Matt, myself, and Tim are all pretty even. But we dont really have a local venue at all. They play at Passtimes, but thats not DCI as Passtimes never reports it. They also play on Sundays when I never can play.

I play occasionally on Sats in Milwaukee at a Venue that Matt and I dominate when we go.

My point is, I think you are looking for a way to really measure player skill, but I dont know how that will be found. Players that play more than others will always be higher regardless, even if they are not better.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:51 pm 
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Well, take myself for an example Dean. I don't play much in the way of tournaments... I never will. I work at a job that sucks up a large chunk of time, and play far too many different games to ever really spend time doing ranked DCI play for one game heavily. Yet, I *think* I'm a competitive gamer. For instance, when I won the nationals in Battletech in '99, I hadn't played in a single competitive tournament for BTech in years. How do we make that measurement system work for guys like me? Or do we?

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:55 pm 
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Ah, I missed that about Vassal... if you can pull it off, I'm all for it :) Lot (read LOT) of work for someone though :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:59 pm 
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I totally understand... and my hat's off to you for your efforts. Folks like you make the community thrive... and as a newly avid player, I really appreciate it :)

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:01 pm 
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Well, I have expressed my doubts. Now on with the assistance :)

National tournies have to be given additional weight. I know not everyone is there yada yada, but Im sorry, if I see some guy I dont know ranked ahead of someone from the top 8 at Gencon, I might take issue with it. Other than the guy who knocked me out that is.

I know now you are all laughing, but I go knocked out by a moderate player who had a great day!!!

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:05 pm 
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True enough... true enough.

Well, while for all the fact that I make computer games for a living, I doubt I'd be much use to you with the site... but I'm happy to assist on anything I can.

Regarding the ranking system, I would think that the key is having thresholds... for example, in major league sports statistics are ignored unless a player has a certain number of at-bats/carries/minutes. We could potentially do the same... unless you have some specific number of victories, you don't show up. That way, the mediocre player who simply has a great game will never become ranked just by beating the #1 player in the world. Beat half a dozen ranked players, though, and you're making a statement.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:21 am 
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dnemiller wrote:
Well I think measuring venue strength is not that hard.... look at the players participating.... We all know that probably the hardest local venue out there is at kalamazoo.... how did we find out this info??? it would be the same look at who is playing.... yes a lot would be left out.... but you know what we still this year did not have the mysterious stranger show to the tourney that Boris alludes too... so I think figuring out the venues strength is not that hard....

base Kzoo as a 1 and go from there

This is so arrogant, I am just plain amazed. I will even refrain from touting Allentown, because it will just be defensive in nature.

No, venue strength is an impossibility to figure out. All you can possibly figure out is if most players at the venue are evenly skilled (IE most have roughly the same wins/losses). Without 'outsiders' coming in and testing their skill against other venues, the relative skill of the venue is questionable. This has been seen in the past with 'Mr #1'. Without visitors coming in, then nothing is known about venues.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:39 am 
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i have to agree with EMR in that that is a very arrogant statement with no basis in fact. I am not saying you guys don't have a tough venue, but you can't discount the other venues that have a strong voice on the boards like nebraska and allentown and others.

I honestly do not think there is a way to effectively figure out the toughest venues without having several meetings through out the year. I dont even take Gencon as a true example because there were good people up and down the rankings that were good. A key loss of map or squad pairing can give a person an auto loss even though they may be the best player in the building.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:14 pm 
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Venue strength is an impossibility. It just smacks of subjectivity and elitism to even try.

All ranking systems have their flaws so whatever you come up with won't be significantly less flawed than DCI.

Assuming it's just for fun, then the simpler the better and the more results driven the better.

I would start with a simple ladder. When you join, you start at the bottom of the ladder. You move up if you beat someone above you. You move down if you lose to someone below you, or don't play for a specified number of days (meaning highly ranked players typically have to play people below them fairly regularly to maintain their spot.)

There should be a max number of slots you can rise or drop from a single game. So, for example, if #100 beats #1 they don't swap--they change perhaps 5 ranks.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:52 pm 
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The last statement by me is not a swipe at you, it was stating that without outsiders testing players, you can have artificially high ranked players with little skill.

Without outsiders testing venues, you can have artificially high ranked venues.

You will never see official results from our venue because we do not sanction DCI play. However, I can state that we have visited all advertised venues within 2 hours of Allentown, one of us has always placed 1st or 2nd to each event (exception, when I scouted out Jester's for the first time, I went my typical 1-2 and I was alone). Does that mean our venue is tier 1? I dunno, combined we have not played enough events to be statistically significant (1 event every 3 months!?).

What I am saying is this: no matter how highly ranked you want to place a venue, without constant testing by outside strong players, there will NEVER be enough information to go by.

I also refuse to acknowledge Vassal as a significant way to show prowess in the DCI realm. DCI games are timed, Vassal games are... not. This alone throws the game conclusions completely around. Much as I hated the fact that one of my championship games went to time, it is a very important factor in DCI games. Get ahead in points and hope time is called.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:44 pm 
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emr131 wrote:
Much as I hated the fact that one of my championship games went to time, it is a very important factor in DCI games. Get ahead in points and hope time is called.


I have a feeling my future with DCI is likely me going to jail... because if someone gets ahead on points vs. me and then starts "thinking" a ton to stall... I will be forced to rip their arms off and beat them with them.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:18 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
I have a feeling my future with DCI is likely me going to jail... because if someone gets ahead on points vs. me and then starts "thinking" a ton to stall... I will be forced to rip their arms off and beat them with them.


Don't do that. That will give them an excuse to play even slower just because they're playing with no arms.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:46 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
I have a feeling my future with DCI is likely me going to jail... because if someone gets ahead on points vs. me and then starts "thinking" a ton to stall... I will be forced to rip their arms off and beat them with them.


It's an overstated and overworried about problem IMHO. We had 2-3 complaints (I heard about) over the whole weekend of Gencon with the most competetive SWM games to date and they were all about a single player. A judge game over and watched his games when not making judgments and the player played noticably quicker thus resolving the problem without requiring any warnings or additional action at all.

At the local level it should be almost nonexistant, though calling a judge ASAP is an option whenever you suspect such a thing. Just do it DURING the game, not after its over when it's just your word against someone elses.

It's really ironic that EMR131 and I had a game go to time. We both played fast and are generally among the group of faster aggressive players. It was just a long chase at the end with tons of missing, and lots of checking for LOS and ranges to specific squares. Even then I have no idea where the time went--maybe we had a slow start/setup that round? I'm not really sure. The game moved and somehow still hit time.


Last edited by NickName on Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:50 pm 
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Grambo wrote:
emr131 wrote:
Much as I hated the fact that one of my championship games went to time, it is a very important factor in DCI games. Get ahead in points and hope time is called.


I have a feeling my future with DCI is likely me going to jail... because if someone gets ahead on points vs. me and then starts "thinking" a ton to stall... I will be forced to rip their arms off and beat them with them.


That's the thing, it doesnt even require "stalling" as you are describing it. Its simple, pick a squad that can kill a fig, or gain gambit for free, and sit back and snipe. Force your opponent to engage on your terms or lose. Most smart opponents will also then just turn figs and set up for an end of game assault. Then, when time is close, engage to get the lead in points, but in such a way as to prevent your opponent from killing enough in response. Such as with a hard to kill fig like Boba BH, or Aurra JH, etc.

It had little to do with "stalling". It has more to do with abusing the time limit system. And right now its part of the game at the top level. I'm not saying its good or bad, or that I did not abuse it as well. Its a smart play in a competative game. Now, I would never do this in a lgs game of course.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:40 pm 
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And trust me, as bad as the problem may seem right now, it was 100x worse without Gambit.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:06 am 
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NickName wrote:
It's really ironic that EMR131 and I had a game go to time. We both played fast and are generally among the group of faster aggressive players. It was just a long chase at the end with tons of missing, and lots of checking for LOS and ranges to specific squares. Even then I have no idea where the time went--maybe we had a slow start/setup that round? I'm not really sure. The game moved and somehow still hit time.


Well, actually, I do not consider that game going to time. Yes it did, but after I lost Vader it was just mop up for you. I did gather a *lot* of gambit, so I still might have squeaked it by if you could not kill my grans fast enough, but I think the end is 99.9% a win for you if there was no time limit.

The game I mention as going to time was truly a strange one. It was a mirror of your squad and he still had Boba, I still had Vader. Just a lot of maneuvering took place... that was the game where I killed Lobot with Mas (cunning) for the win in points.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:41 am 
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If the person that was accused of playing slow is who i thought it is, i had no problems with him when i played him. He was thoughtful of his moves, but did not take any excess time. Actually the more annoying thing was how deliberate he was about keeping time, but the game was my second best of the tournament (EMRs has to be #1).

I had no problems at all with time. Then again my squad was a bull rusher so of course it went fast.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:26 pm 
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Yeah, I'm not going to get into who it was or who played him and mentioned it because it's the concept, not the person that's more worthy of discussion and I don't think he was a bad dude at all. (Not at all like the situation bill and boris reported with one guy at Gencon 2006.)


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