I have to agree with Ace and Billiv and others - Kazdan is certainly playable, and definately fun, but isn't necessarily competitive.

First, Kazdan himself is slightly worse than a JWM. He has similar abilities and stats (Surprise Move is comparable to Lightsaber Assault, Lower def but slightly higher HP).

Second, the general droids are often not nearly as good as "Meta" pieces. Maybe we'll see better droids, but for the most part sep droids are costed as if they get all the good droid CE's -Double Attack, Fire Control, Possible another +4 through Grievous or even careful. Thus, When playing Kazdan I don't feel like I have enough synergy until I've got at least 2 reserves.

Third, its completely random - yes we can build a squad to compensate slightly, but its in the same category as Boba BH in the sense that sometimes it can just win games and other times it just doesn't happen. It is really hard to bring something like that to a tournement. If you win, that's great but everyone thinks you won because you're a lucksack. If you lose, (which is more likely over the course of a long series of games) then it will be because of the dice. A fig like Kazdan takes away some skill decisions. This isn't a knock against the fig, I love him and he is big fun, but if I want to win, I want to be able to control my own destiney for the most part.

Fourth, there is a diminishing returns as point value of the tournement goes up. In a 100 point match, reserves is almost a 30% boost, 150, only 20%, in 200, its pretty much insignificant. My experience is that 100 point games have about the same number of initiatives as a 150 point game, and just a few less than a 200 point game. Thus, I percieve that I'll get roughly the same amount of reserves statistically (2-3 depending on how long I can drag it out before first blows).

Finally, the playstyle of Kazdan puts a tourney player behind. Since Kazdan's reserves are part of his cost, until you get 1 reserve roll you are playing from behind. In order to succeed, the optimal strategy is to run and hide for the most part and avoid confrontation until you get at least the first reserves. Problem with that is that the kazdan player will be behind in gambit if they follow this strategy and also suddenly have lots of fragile points.

I would probably consider bringing Kazdan, QG, JM and 10 points of filler to a 100 point tournement. I feel it would have enough gas to be somewhat competitive, probably wouldn't see MTB, and the reserves have a big impact on the first pull (allowing it to be squad customization in addition to extra beef). Beyond that size, Kazdan is purely for fun.

Great observations, and I do agree that against the most broken pieces (JWMs) in the game, filler droids do not stack up. That having been said, you CAN bring droids that are far more durable in order to make it work for what you face. DTP3s are 80 HP and solid defense for 25 points... and while not deadly, they are certainly flexible and solid. Do they stack up to a JWM? Of course not... but they can put some hits on them, and in quantity, can measure up fine.

The point is valid... but I do believe that if you remove the MTB, a KP squad can stand toe to toe with top squads... will it dominate them? No... but that was never my suggestion. My point was that, like many "meta" pieces, he's undercosted. That remains my opinion, for all the reasons stated above.

As for it being "random"... comparing with Boba BH is silly... he crits one turn in 10. You get reserves, on average, 3 times in a match if played well. Not at all the same thing. While I DO agree with the "control your own destiny" part, the ONLY way to do that is to bring Shock Therapy or some equivalent... you can lose from the 1 just as easily as from the 20... I do it all the time, so trust me.

Anyway... as stated, utterly moot because of MTB... and perhaps THAT was the grand design for his point cost... but without gambit (which is how 99% of SW is played, I'll remind you) KP is utterly, and in all ways, ridiculous (which even the folks arguing above concede).

I don't see how Kazden is undercosted at 55.

Yeah, I still can't see it either. I mean, you simply just go past the droids and go right after Kazdan himself. It's no different than many other builds where a powerful piece sits back and makes you come after them (Thrawn, Han RH, Boba BH, Exar Kun, etc.)

The way I see it, Droid squads are only competitive overall in overwhelming numbers. And even then, you almost always need some pretty heavy hitting ones to focus your enemy's attention, something like a Vulture or X-1, or TTD. The problem with Kazdan. The only reason some Droid squads do as well as they do is because of an overwhelming number of shots. And most of them do a hefty amount of damage. When your opponent is worrying about not getting hit by the Vulture Droid or the X-1 or the TTD, then they are focusing on killing that piece, and for the most part, leaving the smaller droids alone.

With Kazdan, you don't have any of those big Droids. You have to use something else. I personally haven't played with him yet, but it seems to me that the only way he'll be remotely competitive is in an environment where you can force your opponent to deal with another threat, and allow the Droids to sit back and shoot away. That's why some piece like Qui-Gon JM or similar is key. It's all a game of timing though. The longer Qui-Gon and any other 'Interference' pieces can keep the opponent at bay, the longer the Droids have to shoot at stuff.

It really ends up being run a lot like a Jedi Interference Squad. The only problem is that you don't get to do any real damage until the 2nd or 3rd round, when you've finally brought in enough Droids to start making a difference. Whereas with your more traditional JIS squads, they have Boba BH or Jango BH or something like that firing away from Round 1.

On top of that, if you have to use Qui-Gon and Quinlan to run interference, then you're not going to be getting your 50% Reserves very much. That % will drop fast, and soon, you'll be getting Reserves only if you're very lucky.

I just don't see him being overly competitive in anything except non-DCI games, which are played in a kill-em-all format. There's no way I'll play him in DCI at my LGS.

And to say that he's undercosted simply because of how he works out in non-DCI games is silly. He's already going to see little-to-no play in DCI games anyway, so raising his cost would have only made that worse.

I don't either Sithborg, his stats are pretty sub-par. Compare him to CS Yoda. Sure he has a great set of abilities, but if he gets smacked around by a few accurate shooters or some of the newer mid/high-cost Jedi, he's going to fall fast. I understand that the idea is to keep him out of harms way as much as possible, but I think even 55 points is a lot to just have sit in the back and pop out droids. And if I were to play a game against him, I'd make Kazdan my #1 priority to wax

I'll simply say this... until you have tried it as extensively as I have, or run the mathematics, please keep a more open mind. One posted did so... but to those of you that have tried it maybe once, and have presumed the rest of the time... you are... and I say this with confidence... wrong.

Today I got my 18th game with KP on the table. Fool brought him out in 100 against a Rebel IC squad. Had a decent shot, then suddenly, with KP in contact, he whipped out his second reserve of the game, used the "place the droid through a wall" to put a probe droid in contact with my guys, and pulled a bodyguard out to protect. Game-set-match. In the 17 games I've played with KP, he's won 16. The only one I've seen him lose was when I had Bane and had back to back lucky Sith Sorceries and key initiative wins to cream the rest of his squad. I've personally NEVER lost with KP, despite all protests to the contrary. To all of you who believe "oh, just head for KP and rip him up" or "accurate shot him down"... an experienced player knows it is RARELY that easy. If your opponent is an idiot, KP is nothing. Assuming both players are excellent, KP is quite formidable... and while the droids he poops out are definitely not like suddenly getting Aurra Sing or Han Cannon as a reinforcement, they ARE significant contributors to the battle... both in activations and in firepower.

Anyway... not really sure how it matters... he is what he is, I expect that most places that play more casual games will simply not use him, because of his dominance in that format. In DCI, he won't matter thanks to MTB. So all this is moot

I'll assume this is just casual description rather than what it sounds like. A square "through a wall" would not count as adjacent. So it would have to be the absolute nearest possible space available to Kaz using the normal counting of range (around walls/doors) if there's no adjacent space available.

I played Kaz/QV in 100 recently. Only 1 set of reserves despite managing my damage so both were down to like 30 HP before one finally dropped. Lost to a Kota squad.

I dont know about using destroyers. ILS played a game recently and lost because that is what he brought in. They were dead before they even got a shot off and he was down 60pts. I wouldnt bring them in unless i won init and had two really good shots to kill a major figure.

I havent seen a lot of Kazdan played, but every time i have seen him he has lost on points. I think he seals a game, but he wont carry a game and can very well cost you the game.

No, this was exactly one of the circumstances I described earlier when I pointed out how broken this ruling is. KP was in a passageway... so the "closest" place for a 2x2 was more than 6 distant, in ANY direction. With some careful planning, it can allow some impressive things. In reality, it could have been worse... I actually SPECIFICALLY placed one figure to prevent a 3x3 beaming onto my head. Had I not, I would likely have had a Junk Golem in my pocket... but he would have been forced behind and out of the action.

I will say one thing to be fair to the "doubters"... if you do not understand how to use him, he's unforgiving. Much like Boba BH, if you just use him like any other figure, you'll likely lose. I've seen quite a few other games involving KP where he did lose... but in every single case, the player using him had no clue how to use him, how to place him, when to risk him, when to use Surprise Move, or anything else other than "he's a jedi with double attack". My assertions are ALL based on expert use... but then again, that's true of any such power piece... R2 Doombot is only as ridiculous as he is when used by someone who knows how...

And the point I have tried to make to you Grambo over and over again - this is by definition the description of a well designed piece. One that requires the hands of an "expert" to run effectively. While I wouldn't jump on the broken bandwagon, I can say that you specifically have gotten me to look twice at what I can do with Kazdan, beyond my initial relatively obvious squad ideas. I have yet to run him in a competitive game - just on Vassal, but he certainly has been fun. And the movement options and reinforcement options really are critical choices to running him effectively. So well done on your part for being a little overzealous, but enough to keep us thinking.

And back on strategy, best bet is to pack lobot, to protect against an opposing MTB. You can use the first reserve roll for more droid fodder and the BDO if you need it. That covers his biggest weakness well enough I have found.

Second, the other strategy issue I have faced is the lack of power droids you can bring in. 30pts really is limiting. So I have looked at starting Kazdan with a Viper on the board, and using reserves to bring in support. It works great to provide cover for Quinlan/RBSV combo, as well as gives you a decent threat right off the bat. The build looks something like this:

X-1 Viper
Kazdan
Quinlan Inf
Qui Gon JM
Lobot
Ugnaught

I also have a rebel version I will post a little later using K3PO to boost the X1 as well.

Somebody in the GVL was running a variant with Kaz and the X-1, and I have to say, that wasn't something that I had considered before now. Actually, an X-1 or a TTD would be pretty decent, probably.

I definitely think the place where he'll be the most challenging to beat will be at 200 points, where you can support him better, and where the Reserve points don't hurt you quite so bad if they get killed.

Rebel Version

Kaz
X1
K3PO
R2 (for repair as well)
Rebel on Tauntaun
Han Rogue (negate MTB counter)
Chewy of Hoth - quite good for the X1
Ugo X2

This one has less power and no anticipation, but it has more support for the X1, and a better MTB counter. Also, K3PO can keep swapping Han and Chewy around, as well as provide a crazy move for Kaz when the timing is right. It looks weak, but its actually really good when you see the options.

X-1 with Kaz is great, as it allows you to use the Droid Mark ability in the old fashioned way. However, I still stand by that Kazdan isn't great in 200 because of the small impact the reserves will have. And a Rigid Huge like X-1 is a tough sell in smaller formats.

I'm 1-1 with Kaz + X-1 on Vassal - lost to bane spectacularly and beat a Komari Vosa squad...

See I look at it in the opposite. At 200, 30pts of droids are not worth nearly as much for your opponent to kill. Plus, gambit has little impact, so you can essentially camp for a few rounds and make them come to you - barring the Starship map of course. I find 200 is the only point level where Kaz's unpredictability isnt so much of a liability.

I gotta agree with Bill on this one. 150 is definitely not the right place for Kaz at all. Worst combination of not being able to get him enough support, along with the Reserves allowing too many points to swing the game (20% of your total squad from one Reserves roll). 100 Points seems to show that if you're lucky enough with the dice, Kaz/Qui-Gon JM/Ugos can do OK, but 100 points is already so dependent on dice rolls, I'm not sure it's wise to place your fate in the hands of luck even more.

200 Points is the only place where if you lose a Destroyer Droid right away, or your Dark Trooper gets vaped, you don't care quite so much, as it doesn't put you nearly as far behind in the grand scheme of things.

Right. But he counted around the wall, not through it. Correct?



Can I get the benefit of the doubt and the assumption I know how to use him? If so, there's an exception (other than the fact you didn't see it, but I have no reason to lie.) I have no doubt I can win with him too. I just don't think it will be anywhere close to dominant against top-flight competition.

Absolutely Nickname, you're a fine player and I'm sure you do know how to use him properly. I have never seen you drive him so I would never try to imply otherwise.

And yes, he counted AROUND the wall... but given it was a pipe, it was "around' no matter which way. In this case, it let him place at a distance of 7 (the other direction was a distance of . Pretty impressive warp either way. If he'd moved an ugnaught carefully, he could actually have teleported a huge about 12 squares, which REALLY would have been impressive... though less combat effective.

And as for the comparisons against top-flight competition, you're actually supporting me here... I never said he'd "own meta"... I simply stated that I feel he's very undercosted... I felt he was about 11-15 undercosted originally, but with the "teleporting droid trick", I think it is more (but requiring even MORE expert play to maximize). I DO agree he's an excellent piece, and I DO like him and the design... I'm not complaining about him. I'm simply stating that I feel he's very undercosted.

Oh, and guess what... so are quite a few other pieces. JWMs... Aurra Sing... yes, many "meta" pieces are undercosted. I'm stating he feels, because of his numbers AND his expert-potential, more like 25% off now. This is, obviously, a huge "guess" on my part... based on the math partially, but also heavily based on trying to do my best at weighting the intangibles.

Doesn't really matter, of course... if they weren't going to fix the JWM, which was an obvious error, they sure as hell aren't going to "fix" KP

That's the thing, if he was THAT undercosted, he would be burning up the top tables, which he isn't. See what happened with the JWM, and that was only around 5-7 pts undercosted.

Sure, you're just approaching "undercosted" from a different perspective than I do.

JWM was clearly undercosted at the time, but all indications point to that mistake actually working out to "solve" the Melee/range disparity pretty well and somewhere along the line (apparently, I never heard him say it but it was reported he did) Rob decided the JWM would be the new baseline for pricing Melee and particularly Melee Jedi.

Kaz seems to fall pretty closely in line with that pricing so I don't see him at all as "undercosted". Of course, this further diminishes the value of some older Melee peices but considering they were subpar anyway being slightly more subpar isn't really a big deal--they weren't the best option regardless of how Kaz (or any other figure) is priced.