Okay,

So I've rebuilt my reserves and I'm going to make another run at the black hole that is DCI to get the SWM Floor Rules updated.

My question is, should I recommend the Hoth Outpost map be added to the DCI 200 list in addition to Jedi Temple and Ravaged Base?

I've only played a couple games on it, and only at 150.

My initial thoughts are that it's pretty darn open, and there's a real succeptibility to double override. Shooting will start quick. But I'm not sure that's all bad. To get those doors open with double override you'll be exposed, and using 2 seperate activations so it's going to be pretty tough to get the early kill shot on a critical piece that way. But Tow or Charge are going to be a quite deadly start.

You guys are the best representation of DCI 200, so I'll recommend based on your recommendation.

(That said, the black hole beats me more than I beat it, so don't get your hopes too high.)

I havent played a ton on it yet, but in general I think its a good map for 200. I would vote yes.

i've not played on it but one side is more guarded than the other. It will be a map for cannon and high range damage squads.

Its better than Korriban and probably simialr to the hardboard in balance (which isn't great but maps used in tourneys arn't generally balanced).

I agree, it is close enough to the hardboard for it to be okay. There is enough safe areas for it be decent, and I think it would add something interesting to the mix, in the terms of being fairly open once you get to the other side. Sort of a more balanced Mustafar (without Push threat).

I think there will be more grumbling about it than other maps since most people don't own the Hoth pack. (A similar thing happened with the Drow outpost map in DDM when it was only available through a magazine purchase.)

Personally, I would be fine with it, but I can see where some people won't be.

Good luck getting the floor rules updated. I expect Korriban is still going to be made legal at all point levels eventually, yes? WotC people I talked to at GenCon seemed very adamant about putting it in there.

I am going to be honest and say i havent seen it, but how abusive can it be? If we are fighting to get maps like korriban, mustafar and geonosis off of the legal list, would this one be counter intuitive to that?

I would be good with KMG off of the list(150) and adding the ruined base and temple(200) for now. See how that goes and then maybe in a year see where the meta is at. I would hate to bring in a map that is really going to hurt melee and huge squads in 200.

Also, do you know anything about when the dates might be for the new maps that were hinted about? I would hate to finally get the update, and then get some good maps and not have them added for a year/year and a half.

I really like the Hoth Outpost Map the couple of times I've played on it so far. One side of the map has a definite space that is completely safe for first turn. Both sides have some decent semi-safe lanes, depending on the squad build. An R2 Astromech squad may have a decent shot at early round shots (I think R2 can reach the Outpost door in one turn, thus allowing him to open the far door via Override) but in the current meta, unless you're lucky enough to roll a 20 with Boba right then and there, I really don't think it makes enough of a difference.

It's certainly WAY better than Korriban, and better than Mustafar in my mind as well. At least if you have a melee heavy squad, you can move up against the building on the first turn, then move into the building in subsequent turns. There are spaces where you can sit and gain gambit, and an opponent outside the doors has a very tough time getting shots on you. It at least allows for melee units to approach without getting decimated in the process.

Overall, just getting Ruined Base and Yavin Temple added to the 200 list would be great. But adding Hoth Outpost, keeping off Korriban, and removing Mustafar and Geonosis would certainly be welcome as well.

Yes, this was one of my big concerns when I playtested the map, so not surprising I forgot to mention it entirely.

It's remeniscient of Geonosis in that setting up second will allow Towed Boba that wins init a shot on pretty much any character on the board. The one difference from Geonosis is that R2 may be exposed as he's no more than 2 squares for the near door and must have LOS to the far door. That's a big difference of course.



On the nose. For clarity, my recommendation for 100 and 150 will be to remove KMG. In that environment, would adding Hoth Outpost then make it the most unbalanced map left?

So I'm thinking maybe it fits better at 200 to start with. 200 needs maps. And a first round shot tends to be less devestating and more likely to be counterable through bodyguard or something.

So my thought is to recommend Hoth Outpost only for 200, not for 100, 150 which will still be based on the previous "majority opinion" of the current maps without KMG.



The comment from Rodney that Boris found, and the strong hint from Chris West that the back of the LotF poster will have a map are the first I've heard of new maps. Very positive signs.

The Towed Fett situation is pretty similar to what will happen on the hardboard, as I think Fingers mentioned. Personally, I think it should be all point formats. It is a very ranged map, but not nearly as unbalanced as Mustafar. I think it is a good idea to have one big ranged map as a threat in the map selections.

Oddly enough, I 100% agree with this. And it's odd not because I have anything against agreeing with Sithborg, it's odd because I typically prefer to play melee units. So I sort of surprised even myself when I realized I agreed.

I think it's a bit different. On Hardboard on either side you have starting squares that are entirely safe from a first phase towed shot in the Airlock or Blast Door area. There are four maps that don't have such squares on both sides--Korriban, Mustafar, Geonosis, and Hoth Outpost. Given the other 3 maps on that list, that's why I have a minor concern about Hoth Outpost.



Fair enough. If that's the prevailing sentiment I'll revise my list despite my personal reservations that absent KMG it might be the map easiest to exploit with a particular squad build at 150.

I hope people will think a bit about the following situation and share their thoughts... if there were a high-level DCI 150 competetive tourney right now with money prizes, would the existence of Hoth Outpost (and the absense of KMG) lead to a situation like Gencon 2007 where the threat of a specific map significantly shaped the metagame? Will map rolls again be one of factors most prevalent in predicting the outcome?

I don't mind telling you guys that Moses and I will be pushing for pre-determined map rotation similar to DDM Champs. Whether WotC agrees to that or not I can't say, but the big money prizes shouldn't come down to who wins map roll with an abusive squad designed to exploit it.

I agree that it should be "All Formats." I've only played a couple of games on it, but I like it. I'll play it at our next tourney and double-check my initial assessment.

Yep. That's become pretty clear from Moses and your comments, and that's a good thing if it's possible.

I still think it's valuable to improve DCI's map list for the rest of the 2008 "season" (and the possible case where WotC rejects the map rotation idea for the champs.)

NickName, I'm pretty sure that there is at least one or two safe squares all the way on the one side of the map, next to the iceberg (bottom right side, as it's seen on Vassal). I'm 100% positive that one of those is safe from a Towed Boba BH on first round (unless General Kenobi is in play), and either way, if the Boba player wants to extend themselves that far into enemy territory in order to kill Mas or another R2 or something, that's pretty bold, and probably asking for Boba to get pasted early on. I think it's probably fine.

I agree, and didn't mean to suggest otherwise.