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 Post subject: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:47 pm 
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I've been putting off my next Outside the Box post, because I think the whole: "Beat Bane at 100 and B&B at 150" thing is not as applicable in the post-TFU meta. But I don't know if there are good replacements for them.

My original theory in choosing specific squads to beat at 100 and 150 was that it would make the squad building easier (only having to worry about one opponent), since people would already be limited to using not-so-competitive pieces.

What squads should I use for 100 and 150 now? Or should I just get rid of the specific squad requirement? My hesitation there, is that as soon as I post an outside-the-box squad, someone will say, "Well such-and-such hate squad could beat that easily", and I'd rather avoid that by having a standard squad to compare against.

I think this belongs in this forum, because I'm really asking about the state of the meta. Should you build to combat Force Push squads at 100? Is Kota the gatekeeper at 150? That's what I want to know.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:32 pm 
Moff Disra
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At 100
Loda
a) PL and 3x Ugo
b) Han Rogue
c) Rauntaun and ugo's

Jango BH
2x Rauntauns
6x Ugo

At 150
Luke, HPU
Rauntaun
PL
Han
not complete squad

Dr_Divot's Gencon squad
Barzillai's Gencon squad
one of the top San Hill squads from Gencon


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:55 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Engineer wrote:
At 100
Loda
a) PL and 3x Ugo
b) Han Rogue
c) Rauntaun and ugo's

Jango BH
2x Rauntauns
6x Ugo

At 150
Luke, HPU
Rauntaun
PL
Han
not complete squad

Dr_Divot's Gencon squad
Barzillai's Gencon squad
one of the top San Hill squads from Gencon


That Jango build doesn't seem like a squad to beat. How does it handle high defense non-uniques? That +10 (+14 with CF) doesn't his a lot and also doesn't Jango die quickly to other shooter squads? He lacks mobility here and it seems that he'd be easy to whittle down to nothing.

(He absolutely kills many Jedi squads, but a solid Yuke squad will be untouchable with him.)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:42 pm 
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Location: the ghettos of NJ
At 100:
Bane and ugnaughts
JWMsx3, Queen Amidala, and the doombot.
Ewok swarm squads
Mara, jedi, a MTB, wicket, and ugnaughts/ ewoks

150:
JWMs with Boba BH
B&B, either with Lord Vader, JH, or Piett and Vader, Unleashed
Han cannon squads
Rebel pushing squads
San hill squads

200:
Exar sings- kun, aurra sing, sly moore, and support
rebel force pushing squads
B&B with storm commandos
Kota Squads with high-powered shooters
Perhaps Revan squads ( mabe )
San hill
SS nom bombs ( not a huge threat )


Just a few ideas on what I think will be good in the competative scene nowadays.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:59 pm 
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I agree with SirStevee completely. I'd just add the following:

to 100: Yuke squads, mid costed jedi duo's (Example of Shaak and Qui or Luke HPU and Obi U)

to 150: Yuke (or other rebels) with Han Rogue, Kota with Aurra/Brood

to 200: a Rancor/Thrawn build

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:29 pm 
Moff Disra
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SirStevee wrote:
At 100:
Ewok swarm squads
Mara, jedi, a MTB, wicket, and ugnaughts/ ewoks

Ulic played the Mara MTB at our last DCI. It's too easy to run away for the win. Maps with doors is easier than the Rancor pit.

Instead of ewok swarms, Tusken Raider swarm.


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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:11 pm 
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This one rocked our last tournament, be prepared
200
Thrawn
3x Uggernaught
Jabba Crime lord
Veers
Mas
Filler

+13 accurate shot Furious assaults I died in 2 rounds

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:37 pm 
One of The Ones
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Eh...it's one to be prepared to face, but it's easily defeated with an MTB, careful door control, and good figure placement. It's certainly frustrating if you don't know how to deal with it, but not unbeatable.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:38 pm 
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Well one way that you suggest to beat it is MTB. That is a decision made before the tournament. I played San to deal with initiative problems. MTB was not an option for my reinforcements. As for figure placement, on the starship map there wasn't a lot I could do. I lost board side, and just got unloaded on. You might be surprised how hard it is to avoid those shots.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:31 am 
One of The Ones
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Well, yeah, I can understand that. Sometimes everything just goes against you.

Though I'm curious as to why MTB "wasn't an option" for Reinforcements. Were you not using Lobot in your squad? Besides, you should've been able to set up such that he only was able to pull off a Furious Assault with one, maybe two, of the Uggernauts at most in the first round.

A Han Cannon squad with an MTB shouldn't have much trouble at all taking out one Uggernaut every round.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:46 pm 
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it wasn't an option because if I took the MTB, then I would have to be sacrificing pieces, I really didn't have the extra activations to be sacking.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:14 am 
One of The Ones
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You bring an MTB and 4 Ugos. You should already have 3 Ugos in your squad. Besides, using the MTB in a San build gives you the added advantage of being able to kill of San whenever you want. Also, it's not that difficult to run the MTB up next to an opponent's piece and use Boba's Flamethrower to take it down at some point. Just have to keep Boba alive until then. :P

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:09 pm 
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Yeah but after turn 1 I would have had nothing. on the starship map Those stupid Uggernaughts with thrawn can get a total of 24 squares of movement. This means that by the end of round 2 everything has been shot at (most likely two or three times) All the scrubby activations will be dead.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:16 pm 
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OK...so.....what would you plan to bring instead with Lobot???

You'd still get to activate first in the round, thereby saving one of your pieces from getting hit with Cunning (will still get hit, but likely not as hard). The Uggernauts still have to roll an 11 to hit Aurra in cover. And if you hide your entire squad properly, the Thrawn player should not be able to get any attacks on you in his first phase. Sure, 2nd phase, he can swap in an Uggernaut, and rush to hit some things, but then you get a chance to whack away at the Uggernaut until the beginning of the next turn.

I'm telling you, yes, Thrawn + Uggernauts is tough, but you should have no trouble beating it, even on it's key map. Those Uggernauts go down hard, and once they go down, Thrawn has absolutely no power over you at all any more.

If you're lucky enough to lose map, but win side, and can choose the Control Room on the hardboard, then you can hide your whole squad behind the closed doors of the control room. Then the Thrawn player has to use a Swap just to get the doors open in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:08 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
You'd still get to activate first in the round, thereby saving one of your pieces from getting hit with Cunning (will still get hit, but likely not as hard). The Uggernauts still have to roll an 11 to hit Aurra in cover. And if you hide your entire squad properly, the Thrawn player should not be able to get any attacks on you in his first phase. Sure, 2nd phase, he can swap in an Uggernaut, and rush to hit some things, but then you get a chance to whack away at the Uggernaut until the beginning of the next turn.

I'm telling you, yes, Thrawn + Uggernauts is tough, but you should have no trouble beating it, even on it's key map. Those Uggernauts go down hard, and once they go down, Thrawn has absolutely no power over you at all any more.

If you're lucky enough to lose map, but win side, and can choose the Control Room on the hardboard, then you can hide your whole squad behind the closed doors of the control room. Then the Thrawn player has to use a Swap just to get the doors open in the first place.


Yeah, I can see this going either way. I understand that hiding all the Ugnaughts would be darn near impossible, but LoboStele makes some good points, too. The Uggernaughts shouldn't have much survivability after that first round.

Sounds like it was one of those gimmick concepts that worked great exactly once but the next time you will know better how to beat it.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:21 am 
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Or thrawn player brings lobot as well and overides the darn door.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:42 am 
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Luke_Skywalker wrote:
Or thrawn player brings lobot as well and overides the darn door.


Unlikely.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:04 pm 
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OK, here's the thing. Look at your Starship hardboard map. No matter which side of the map you get stuck on, you should absolutely be able to set up a large majority of pieces where an Uggernaut moving 12 squares, will not have LOS to anything on the first turn. Heck, just setting up the majority of pieces in the corner areas should get you that kind of safety. If your opponent has Lobot....well then duh...don't use the Control Room. Even if you do use the Control Room, he has to stick Lobot out there where he can be shot easily in order to get the door open, and then he only gets to activate 1 of the Uggernauts. Then you simply use your Boba BH (if we're still talking about the San squad) to pick off Lobot on the next turn.

At most, the Thrawn player has done minimal damage to your pieces with the 1 Uggernaut so far. Now, once Lobot is dead, he won't be able to get that door open for the rest of Round 1.

I'm not disagreeing that the Uggernaut squad is tough to take down, but it certainly isn't the be-all, end-all for 200 point squads. It's extremely gimmicky, and loses to half-a-dozen other squads in the meantime. Heck, my gonk-Boba squad can wipe out an Uggernaut at the beginning of every round...with one activation!

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:24 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
OK, here's the thing. Look at your Starship hardboard map. No matter which side of the map you get stuck on, you should absolutely be able to set up a large majority of pieces where an Uggernaut moving 12 squares, will not have LOS to anything on the first turn.


I see why you are confused. You are correct. There are spots on the map where an Ugnaught cannot move 12 squares to see every enemy. But that's not what's happening, at least not in this situation. Let me lay out the parameters to better illustrate:

Map -Hardboard
Side roll - Thrawn on left (Pit area); San on right.

Round 1 - Thrawn wins init. An Uggneraught bounds out 12 squares, uses Furious Assault/Twin Attack. Thrawn activates, swaps the 2 Uggernaughts. Player passes the phase.
San player activates 1 fig, best-case it's Boba BH and attacks the unactivated Uggernaught. Barring a 20 AND a second hit, there's no way to defeat it. Now the Thrawn player goes again, activating the Uggernaught that was just swapped into place. It moves 12 more squares and unloads. It should be able to see everyone it needs to.

I don't think it's the end-all either, but against what Luke had and where they were playing (hardboard), then yes it's a losing game.

The focus of the discussion has moved from "Here's what happened with these specific squads on this specific map" to "Do Uggernaughts dominate the 200 point format on Starship?"

That's a big difference. As I said earlier, Luke had an inferior squad for that situation; but it's something that should only happen once.

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 Post subject: Re: So what should you build to beat at each point level?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:35 pm 
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How? How does the Thrawn player shoot everybody if they are either behind the pink wall lines in the corner of the map, or inside the closed doors of the Control Room??

The Thrawn player MUST have Override in that situation. If the squad is what Luke posted earlier (with 3 Uggernauts), the only way to fit Lobot into the squad is if you plan on bringing in Jabba as part of the reinforcements. And if you do bring Lobot, you can guarantee that you're going to lose him the first time you open those doors to try to get shots through. Then you've lost 27 points, maybe killed some of the San player's fodder, but you now have no more door control, other than holding the doors open with your own figures, which will allow the San player to quite easily pick away at them.

And still, if your opponent brings Thrawn and Uggernauts, then with a San squad, you could use your own Lobot to bring in Lando DS. If the Thrawn player is ballsy enough to rush all the way across the map on the first round, he's going to very likely lose an Uggernaut in that first round, as Lando has a decent chance to survive the twin attack, and then can put 30 on the Uggernaut in return.

Like I said, I agree, it's certainly a tough matchup for a San squad, but then again, I've never been convinced that San Hill is nearly as viable at 200 points as it is at 150 anyways.

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