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FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results
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Author:  Darth_Jim [ Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

Let's say that all of that works like you want it to. You've just spent what, 47 points to protect a 16pt figure. Additionally, you are spending all of those activations during a round to keep him safe. What is your opponent doing during that time? What if you have to respond to those actions? And, through all of this, we're talking about responses, instead of talking about taking the fight to your opponent, making him make the tough decisions.

I say if you are determined to play Imperials this weekend, go ahead and try it out. Like I said earlier, I wasn't ready to admit defeat until my son beat me like 10 times in a row lol. Maybe you'll figure it out and can make it work... good luck.

Author:  audrisampson [ Fri Mar 02, 2012 1:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

Darth_Jim wrote:
Let's say that all of that works like you want it to. You've just spent what, 47 points to protect a 16pt figure. Additionally, you are spending all of those activations during a round to keep him safe. What is your opponent doing during that time? What if you have to respond to those actions? And, through all of this, we're talking about responses, instead of talking about taking the fight to your opponent, making him make the tough decisions.

I say if you are determined to play Imperials this weekend, go ahead and try it out. Like I said earlier, I wasn't ready to admit defeat until my son beat me like 10 times in a row lol. Maybe you'll figure it out and can make it work... good luck.


It is worth a shot to try it out. Its got a better chance of beating Bastilla then the "Bastilla just whoops my faction's ass so I'm scooping routine." Hannahcannon also has the advantage of this event not really meaning as much as the one you played in. For him it's just another friday night minis. Being one of his main competitor's I can see where your coming from and while that might keep me from hosing him with Bastilla it is extra wasted activations.. but Im going to have the same wasted activations with mouse droids and Uggies.

Author:  Darth_Jim [ Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

audrisampson wrote:
Darth_Jim wrote:
Let's say that all of that works like you want it to. You've just spent what, 47 points to protect a 16pt figure. Additionally, you are spending all of those activations during a round to keep him safe. What is your opponent doing during that time? What if you have to respond to those actions? And, through all of this, we're talking about responses, instead of talking about taking the fight to your opponent, making him make the tough decisions.

I say if you are determined to play Imperials this weekend, go ahead and try it out. Like I said earlier, I wasn't ready to admit defeat until my son beat me like 10 times in a row lol. Maybe you'll figure it out and can make it work... good luck.


It is worth a shot to try it out. Its got a better chance of beating Bastilla then the "Bastilla just whoops my faction's ass so I'm scooping routine." Hannahcannon also has the advantage of this event not really meaning as much as the one you played in. For him it's just another friday night minis. Being one of his main competitor's I can see where your coming from and while that might keep me from hosing him with Bastilla it is extra wasted activations.. but Im going to have the same wasted activations with mouse droids and Uggies.


Anyone running Imperials in the 500 format facing OR has my full support lol. Let us know how it goes.

Author:  hinkbert [ Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

hannahcannon wrote:
I was going over this for the epic we're planning on playing soon. It'll take a bit to set everything up that I have in mind, but you should be able to do it on first turn. What I'm thinking is Pelleaon moves forward with houjix as a bodyguard. His 90 hp should keep him around long enough to keep Pelleaon alive. Next turn run another character up adjacent to Pelleaon and the houjix then use Thrawn to swap Baron Do Sage into that person's place. Next turn the Baron uses Force Barrier to keep Pelleaon from getting shot and then move Figrin D'an up adjacent to the Baron. Now Pelleaon and anyone else adjacent to the Baron can't be shot, and Figrin D'an can use draw fire to try redirecting attacks within 6 to himself, where they'll be reflected back by the barrier. The baron's ability stays active like Bastilla's, so you've got a couple turns each time he uses it if you can keep anyone from getting into melee with him. Not sure it'll work, but it looks good in my head and on paper.


I think this is one of those ideas that looks good on paper, but may be hard to execute in reality. I really like the use of draw fire though and I think it's on overlooked ability that could counter the OR and it takes an ability like Furious Assault and changes it from an advantage to a disadvantage. In any event, best of luck, and if it works: Awesome!

Author:  hannahcannon [ Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

Yeah, it's a bit complicated. The hope is that I can at least get 3-4 activations before I'm getting shot at by zuckuss, and hopefully the bodyguards can keep the pieces you need alive for long enough to set up the defense. As for the points, Im not worried about 40 some points for 3 characters in the epic format because there's still plenty of room for all the attackers I need and they're all doing something I consider useful. Personally, I won't use Pelleaon in epic because I hate wasting a commander slot on him, so this is centered around Thrawn in my squad.

Author:  audrisampson [ Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

Well HannahCannon does all this mean the challenge of me playing OR, Bastilla-less has been shifted to you to be able to beat her and OR?? No offense to WarMasterPig or SvenBlackSunVigo but if you want to playtest this idea it needs to be against someone who knows OR more then any other faction :)

Author:  hannahcannon [ Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

Well, remember the reason I asked you not to play it is so you don't turn some of the other people away from wanting to play it in the future by giving them a royal beatdown their first time out. It's certainly up to you though. I have a strategy I can try and too bad for them if they don't.

Author:  audrisampson [ Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

It will be a bit rough on some peeps but I think the other non-OR rounds will still be pretty interesting, its also not like I have the Zuckuss and Boba BH to do the squad like the one that did so well in this thread.. (kinda wished I did, that squad looked awsome)

Author:  Darth_Jim [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

audrisampson wrote:
It will be a bit rough on some peeps but I think the other non-OR rounds will still be pretty interesting, its also not like I have the Zuckuss and Boba BH to do the squad like the one that did so well in this thread.. (kinda wished I did, that squad looked awsome)


I have a Zuckuss for trade. If you are going to GenCon this year, look me up. If I still have him and you still don't, he's yours for free. As for Boba BH... sorry, you're on your own there lol.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

EDIT: Forgot to include my Epic, sorry. This is the update.

I think I would run ...
146 Terentatek (Epic figure)
066 Galen Marek
052 Evo Trooper x4
050 Darth Vader, Unleashed
037 Grand Admiral Thrawn (Commander #1)
034 Storm Commando x2
033 Emperor Palpatine on Throne (Commander #2)
027 Mission Vao
027 Lobot
011 Admiral Ozzel (Commander #3)
009 Wuher
008 Mas Amedda

Keep Ozzel within 6 of Thrawn and Bastila can never take away your Commander Effect. Vader is knocking down enemies every round. With Wuher, you take away your opponent's ability to out-activate you as well. Galen is just gravy. Mission Vao is the suprise tech. She can double with Cunning +20 after a key swap. And she has Stealth, which fits with the Terentatek's role of providing cover.

Terentatek is my Epic for a few reasons. 1, Vader and TPM are both commanders, and I need the versions of them already included for obvious reasons. 2, it has Force Immunity, can provide cover to just about everybody on my squad, and has a ton of HP to be chewed through. With Speed 8, it is in your face pretty quick while I am positioning the rest of my squad to win. :)

Author:  urbanjedi [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

except I think all activation control CEs were/have been banned from Epics.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

Since there are no official rules yet, it really just comes down to guidelines at local events. And I think there was a consensus that using a CE for act control costs a slot you would use for something else. My educated guess would be that venues that don't observe the 3-commander limit banned the idea of activation control on principle. If everyone observed the 3-commander rule, it would be a great counter for the OR squad, and would solve a lot of other issues as well - even some that haven't come up yet. ;)

You know, I didn't just sit down and write up the "rules" for the format in 30 seconds. I spent weeks thinking about it before I posted it. :)

Author:  billiv15 [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

urbanjedi wrote:
except I think all activation control CEs were/have been banned from Epics.


There are no rules. It's 100% up to the TO. And so far, there has been nothing consistent about these events. Everyone has their own tweaks they have chosen. I'm opposed to banning, with a 3 commander limit rule in place, but that's just how I would run it. You can clearly see, there is no consensus on it however.

As for Gencon, that is still to be determined. But since the Epics are in part my baby, I do expect to have some weight in determining the rules. With that said, all final decisions will be chosen by Ray, and Ray alone (with hopefully our input of course).

What I'd like to see is the following.
16 max activations (reinforcements and reserves can break the limit)
3 commanders maximum
1 Epic required
Bastilla and Yammosk count as commanders for this format.
Gambit = 20 pts per round

Then a legal map list that is trimmed down to about 6-8 maximum. All legal maps should be huge friendly and melee neutral (there are no melee favorable maps lol).

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

billiv15 wrote:
What I'd like to see is the following.
16 max activations (reinforcements and reserves can break the limit)
3 commanders maximum
1 Epic required
Bastilla and Yammosk count as commanders for this format.
Gambit = 20 pts per round


We can try it at 20, but 25 was the point value because that is what WotC used for DDM Epic. I'm not sure about Bastila and the Yammosk counting as commanders. There would be some odd interactions with them that could cause unforeseen headaches. I think limiting it to 3 should be the first step, and if they are still an issue for the game then we could always make that errata for the format later on.

Author:  Darth_Jim [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

billiv15 wrote:
As for Gencon, that is still to be determined. But since the Epics are in part my baby, I do expect to have some weight in determining the rules. With that said, all final decisions will be chosen by Ray, and Ray alone (with hopefully our input of course).


I've heard a few comments that I 'was in charge' of this format. I am not. Bill is right... Ray is making the decisions on this. But, with the lack of a consistent format nationwide, we could all make his decisions a little easier to make by making known what is winning AND what the parameters of the events are in your area. I have run some things differently here in the east with the hopes of contrasting results and either proving or disproving assumptions.

However you run it, please be vocal about the results.

Author:  Darth_Jim [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

billiv15 wrote:
What I'd like to see is the following.
16 max activations (reinforcements and reserves can break the limit)
3 commanders maximum
1 Epic required
Bastilla and Yammosk count as commanders for this format.
Gambit = 20 pts per round

Then a legal map list that is trimmed down to about 6-8 maximum. All legal maps should be huge friendly and melee neutral (there are no melee favorable maps lol).


I like all of this... 20 as opposed to 25 allows Vong Jedi Hunters to score gambit.

Author:  Echo [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

billiv15 wrote:
16 max activations (reinforcements and reserves can break the limit)


This is one thing I'm particularly not fond of; specifically, allowing Reinforcements to break the limit. Basically I'm going to bring Lobot every single time. At 500 points his 27 points is practically nothing (it's like 10 points at 200), and if you don't bring him you will automatically be outactivated by every single squad that does, since you're stuck at 16 activations and they get to go to 22. Even at 500 points scrubs are needed (lots of 500 point squads have range 6 CEs that need Mouse Droids or need a couple of R7s so their beats aren't stuck opening doors), so with Reinforcements in play everyone will just use Lobot instead of those scrubs. I'd much rather have Reinforcements not work, so you have to decide at the time of squad building how many of your 16 activations you're going to relegate to things like Mouse Droids, which are often needed. With Lobot, the answer to that question will always be "1", and he brings in however many you feel you need.

I also think it would lead to some squads that take advantage of the higher activations they get to have with Lobot and bringing in 6 or even 10 Mouse Droids just to get in the way. If you play against basically anything but OR, Yobuck, or Lancers, those 10 Mouse Droids will be really really useful, because they could mean a full round of your opponent having to spend his turns killing the Mice or maneuvering around them, while you out-activate and pound them with your entire squad. Getting a big first strike like that in this format can easily be game winning. I also think this kind of goes against the purpose of the format, that being having mostly high-cost pieces in play instead of walls of scrubs.

At Coolecticon Reinforcements wasn't allowed to break the limit, and I thought it worked great. Reserves still can since it's unreliable and the pieces are worth points.

I've also mentioned before (it might have been on Bloomilk) that the Yammosk has to count as a commander just by the game rules. If it stills a CE, it GAINS a CE, making it a commander. It's not a follower. Just like how a character that uses Force Valor becomes a commander because it gains a CE. The way that's obvious to me to have this interact with the 3 CE limit is to basically say "If you have 3 CEs before using an ability that turns a Follower into a Commander, you can not use that ability". So you can use the Yammosk just to extend SAs, but if you already have 3 CEs it doesn't get to use Telepathic Insight.

Author:  jonnyb815 [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

I disagree about Jolee. We have played it both ways when we play no ces. Enevents locally. FBut really he does not have a ce at the beginning of the game. Just because it's ce does not mean it should count as one of your three ce since it was not part of your three at the start of the game.

I believe this should be the case for all characters like this. It gets jolee more play whats wrong with that.

Author:  hinkbert [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

As someone who has played in quite a few of Jim's 500 pt events, and Frosty con, I agree with Echo in regards to the 16 activation limit needing be set and have it include reinforcements. For the format to work efficiently and for the games to run well all players need to be limited to an initial 16 pieces.

I also agree with Echo about the Yammosk and ABM. ABM isn't a commander effect and shouldn't be treated as such. If ABM continues to be viewed as an issue that is making the format less competitive, fun, unbalanced, etc, after Gencon then it should possibly be addressed, but imo it's still too early to be changing things in regards to it. And the Yammosk should totally count as a commander if a player chooses to use it as a commander.

Personally I'm still against the CE limit, but I'd much rather have a restriction like a CE limit rather than banning pieces or issuing errata just for the 500 format. I just think it makes more sense to have restrictions and rules that affect everyone (activation limits, map restrictions, etc) than changing specific pieces that could end up having unintended consequences.

Author:  Grand Moff Boris [ Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: FrostyCon - Epic 500 Squads & Results

It's true that for Coolecticon the Reserves/Reinforcements rule was changed, but the original concept of Epic was to allow them. Lobot may bring in more characters, but he's not the only one who can. Besides, now we have Wuher and Tyber Zann. One or both of them will appear in my squad every time I play from now on.

I do find it kind of humorous that the format is getting so much debate more than 5 years after it was created. :)

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