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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:23 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
I just don't see it. You get just as many mice without Gha in most cases.


Sure. The thread could have been retitled "the 6+ mouse dump" or "10 mouse syndrome" to clarify that they could be built-in to the core squad as well.

I don't really see anyone focusing on Gha related solutions (and assume it's because they don't think Gha specifically is the problem either.)

The problem is there's no down-side to the garbage acts because you can avoid bringing them in when they're a detriment due to Reinforcements. It's like the difference between San and Dodonna. San has a downside, while Dodonna just says "okay, I'll activate 2 this phase." When you face Kybuck or something, use that 20 points more wisely.

Earlier in game's life, the options available to Fringe Reinforcements were pretty modest. (4 Bespin Guards with 20D in cover for combined fire--yeah!) Today you've got everything if it turns out the mouse dump isn't a good idea. Excellent ranged combat troops with Lando or IG-86s. Great melee support with AAs. Super commanders like the Twi'lek Vigo. Amazing tech with Tactics Broker, cheap Override on R7s, mini-disruptive on Crumb, or It's a Trap for anti-stealth. It's hard to go wrong with Lobot in the current environment.

And Reinforcements with high acts is so prevalent at the top that it can use some more semi-counters. Nothing should break it entirely. A 10 point Fringe guy who prevents your opponent from getting Reinforcements would be overkill, for example. But I would like to see factions that need crowd control get something that works well on garbage acts without entirely crippling swarms. (Admittedly tough balance.) And I would also like to see specific factions start to get some Reinforcments counters that hurt it in a more general sense by making it slightly less useful.

An example of the former would be a cheap 10 damage Gallop piece in a faction that has difficulty boosting its damage. Gallop is great against non-combat acts because you get to continue the Gallop against 0 Damage characters even if you miss, so it's not an auto-win against, say, a Stormtrooper swarm because of the danger of AoOs.

And a couple examples of the latter type of counter would be Communications Jamming:

Option A) Characters brought in through Reinforcements or Reserves cost 2 more. (credit to Deri)
Option B) Reinforcements are not set up before starting the first round. Save 11 before initiative each following round to set them up. If the character with Reinforcements is defeated, they are set up automatically before initiative the following round.

Both options add uncertainty to Reinforcements... the former by affecting how efficiently the points can be spent, particularly on lower costs figures, and the latter by affecting when they will appear in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:41 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
All this being said - I am fine with creative solutions that new pieces bring out - such as:

"Your droids aren't welcome here" - If this character is in your base squad, your opponent cannot bring in droids as reinforcements or reserves.

or

"Tax Collector" - If this character is in your base squad, Rapport is negated on all opponents reinforcements or reserves, and all characters 3 points or less cost 1 more


I think these are both good ideas.

For me the really annoying thing about having 10+ mouse droids on board is how much it constricts play. In the Maryland regional playoffs, Daniel brought 10 mice in both games and used them to make engagement at times almost impossible. In his semifinals game he built a wall of mouse droids around Han GH and Anakin that his opponent spent three rounds trying to get through with Jaina (v). In the final he lost five mouse droids in the first round (opponent's Mira shot one and he failed all the splash saves) but still used the rest of them to clog the middle of the map and keep his opponent from getting his four melee attackers to anything important. The middle part of the game basically consisted of Jedi Battlemasters attacking mouse droids (and missing a lot) while Han shot them.

20 defense on a 2 point piece that also has a very useful ability is just ludicrous. I would support reducing it to 10 via an errata. That would also remove the hellish 24-defense mouse droids in GGDAC squads that are hard to kill even with Lancer/Yobuck.

And I would caution people against assuming that Yobuck/Lancer is the end-all be-all of mass activation counter. Against the Lancer it is not hard to just load the mouse droids into rooms with no throughway. When the Lancer dies, they can come out and get in the way of IG-86s. Against Yobuck, just put them in the middle of nowhere, if you really need them in the first place. This week I played Tim's Whorm-Lancer squad and lost to a squad where Lord Vader was the only attacker, because my opponent also brought in about 20 mouse droids and put them in rooms I could not enter.

Right now the meta is activation control and counters. Top 8 last year was what, three Yobuck, one Lancer, one Ozzel, and three Dodonna? So far the regional winners are all activation control squads that include the ability to bring in 10 mouse droids if so desired - and one of them also had the Lancer! The problem to me is that these squads exist in a zone where their biggest strength is getting to take unopposed actions and the greatest weakness is not being able to do so. Tim's regional squad, which I think is extremely clever, only has 62 points of attackers in it. Think about that - a 200 point squad that is only 31% offense winning major tournaments! Why? Because he can take three unanswered moves with the Lancer (go last, pawn, win init w/MTB). Without that advantage, the squad has incredible difficulty, as he mentioned and I as experienced myself. It needs the activation edge to win games.

I have an issue with this meta because it greatly disadvantages factions with no answer (Sith, OR, Vong). I think the dominance of activation control is a bigger issue than mouse droid swarming overall; the former led to the latter. The funny thing is, I think the best counter might be something like a piece that says "If your opponent has activation control and you don't, you can choose to activate three pieces." That gives you a chance to, say, have once piece kill the shielding mouse droids, then still have enough of a "real" turn to do something useful. It also makes people think twice about bringing Dodonna or Ozzel in the first place. Do you really want to go against a Lancer or swap or Ganner squad that can take three activations at once?

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 12:38 pm 
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greentime wrote:
"If your opponent has activation control and you don't, you can choose to activate three pieces."


I like this idea most of all. It doesn't nerf either activations or screens, just provides a strategic avenue to circumvent them. This would be one instance where I'd be in favor of a fringe piece that did this because it would even encourage players running factions with access to activation control to go a different direction.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 5:54 pm 
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I agree that Pace of battle wouldn't work, however I think that something along the lines of

Once a player has activated all characters the opponent may activate (x I would probably say 3-4) characters and then a new init is rolled. I still am not convinced that this is the way to go as it could lead to some very abusable squads.

I personally prefer multiple options with the first being the aforementioned

your droids aren't welcome here (players cannot bring in any droid characters for reinforcements). This stops the 10 mouse dump and the 2 r7 2 mouse dump but still allows lobot to bring in cool tech like lando or tbsv. Similar IMO to the mando CIO. somewhat hurtful but doesn't make it totally unplayable and if you are really concerned about it you just bypass lobot and build into your base squad. It still surprises me how many people bring the same reinforcements every game. If you are going to do that then why not just build into your main squad?

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:47 pm 
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Or you can build a well-costed Opportunist shooter in one of the non-Tempo-Control factions, and give it this SA:

Last Word: This character is always the last character to activate each round, regardless of the number of pieces in play.

The piece would need to have mobile attack or something else that would allow it to escape out of harm's way every round for the duration of the next round. But if the piece was made well (effective but not beastly), it could serve as a decent deterrent to the end-of-round strike squads, because it would continually allow a retaliation strike until it was defeated. This kind of piece could actually bring a whole new creative kind of strategy to the game, because you'd want to use the piece to attack whenever possible, but also leave it in a location where it would be safe until the end of the next round. Basically, "Last Word" would be both a benefit and a hindrance.

It seems to me that a piece like this would make sense in the OR and in the Mandos--perhaps a Unique with Affinity for either faction? Anyway, that would be cool. And it would help to counter the advantage of a big end-round strike held by Tempo Control/Mass-Act squads.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 8:22 pm 
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or a character that said when your opp activated a character all characters with the same name activated. He wouldn't work very well against swarms but would be great against mouse dumps, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 9:13 pm 
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I've got a fever, and the only prescription...is more Flamethrower!

...to get rid of those pesky Mouse Droid screens, of course. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 10:15 pm 
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Yes, a more ubiquitous outpouring of Flamethrower 10 would help a bit too.

Non-unique allies gain Flame 10 would be good...perhaps via CE, perhaps via SA...it would be great for the Vong. But maybe it wouldn't be Flame 10...maybe it would be like Flame, but then mixed with Indiscriminate, so that it would burn through Diplomat walls too. After all, the Vong weren't really all that concerned about a person's political agenda...they just wanted to dominate! :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 11:40 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Or you can build a well-costed Opportunist shooter in one of the non-Tempo-Control factions, and give it this SA:

Last Word: This character is always the last character to activate each round, regardless of the number of pieces in play.

The piece would need to have mobile attack or something else that would allow it to escape out of harm's way every round for the duration of the next round. But if the piece was made well (effective but not beastly), it could serve as a decent deterrent to the end-of-round strike squads, because it would continually allow a retaliation strike until it was defeated. This kind of piece could actually bring a whole new creative kind of strategy to the game, because you'd want to use the piece to attack whenever possible, but also leave it in a location where it would be safe until the end of the next round. Basically, "Last Word" would be both a benefit and a hindrance.

It seems to me that a piece like this would make sense in the OR and in the Mandos--perhaps a Unique with Affinity for either faction? Anyway, that would be cool. And it would help to counter the advantage of a big end-round strike held by Tempo Control/Mass-Act squads.

+1. Fun and interesting idea.

And I'm all for more flamethrower too!

But I mentioned way back that Painful Screech or a similar ability given to a medium character would be a huge deterrent to mouse screens (and Diplomats). Run up into the middle of them and howl like a banshee. Poof. Is that going to put scrub swarms at a bigger disadvantage than they already have to deal with? I don't think so, unless the character that gets it has a solid def and/or decent amount of HP like the Ghhhk. Besides, why not make some use out of some of the cool abilities the Dejariks brought to the game? They mostly aren't very playable, but that doesn't have to mean they were a complete waste of design effort for the skirmish game. :)

p.s. - be sure to let Markedman247 design the Lady Gaga epic mini. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:35 am 
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TimmerB123 wrote:

All this being said - I am fine with creative solutions that new pieces bring out - such as:

"Your droids aren't welcome here" - If this character is in your base squad, your opponent cannot bring in droids as reinforcements or reserves.



I really like this on a Wuher. He could also have "No Blasters" -Characters within two squares must make a save of 11 to make a ranged attack.

Restricting Droid Reserves might be a bit much though. Kazdan and Wat are not really a problem.

I like Trevor's Last Word idea too, as well as the Flame Thrower suggestion. No saying we can't do them all.

Also I'd like to add that I think this thread is a really great example of a brainstorming session from the community at large that we need more of.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 11:10 am 
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We don't serve their kind here! - Anytime a droid is within 6 squares of this character is must immediately move 3 squares towards it's starting space. If after the move the droid is still within 6 it takes 10 damage.


I left it open towards all droids so it could negatively impact your own if you are not careful.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 3:09 pm 
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I was pondering this. Granted, this doesn't help with melee but maybe helps with the creation of a melee version:

Rodian Rifleman (SM: Rodian Hunt Master)
SA:
Expert Marksman: This character ignores characters that are one base size smaller when determining legal targets.
Marksmanship Instructor: Medium-sized characters within 2 squares gain "Expert Marksman."


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:16 pm 
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I like some the ideas here like we don't serve droids here.

I would like to see thud bug go back to damaging droids as stated on the universe cards even though it doesn't activate them.

One thing I think could be errata, is that the mouse droid doesn't provide cover to any character but another mouse droid and any character can move through them as if its difficult terrain but can not end movement on the mouse droid space.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:16 pm 
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For displacing mouse walls, it would be cool to have a character with a special ability like:
Magnetism: at the end of this character's turn, every small-based enemy droid within 12 squares is immediately shifted in a square adjacent to this character. Displaced enemies are activated this round; save 16.

It means you could potentially pull mouse droids into pits


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:06 pm 
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I had a similar idea; which I tried to explain to Ben Johnson, but failed miserably. Thanks for so eloquently stating it.

I also like Trevor's Last Word.

I would like to see two fringe pieces, one piece for each SA, both of which are under 20 points, so they can be brought in via Lobot's reinforcements!



Markedman247 wrote:
I was pondering this. Granted, this doesn't help with melee but maybe helps with the creation of a melee version:

Rodian Rifleman (SM: Rodian Hunt Master)
SA:
Expert Marksman: This character ignores characters that are one base size smaller when determining legal targets.
Marksmanship Instructor: Medium-sized characters within 2 squares gain "Expert Marksman."


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 9:59 pm 
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Markedman247 wrote:
I was pondering this. Granted, this doesn't help with melee but maybe helps with the creation of a melee version:

Rodian Rifleman (SM: Rodian Hunt Master)
SA:
Expert Marksman: This character ignores characters that are one base size smaller when determining legal targets.
Marksmanship Instructor: Medium-sized characters within 2 squares gain "Expert Marksman."

I like this.
How about for the melee pieces a SA like this:
"Nimble Footing: This character ignores enemy characters of smaller base size when moving."
I know the name sounds stupid just couldn't think of anything better.

I always take into account the fact that I might be out activated when building a squad. I think most competitive players do or should also. Obviously there are ways to build to overcome or at least lessen it's advantage to your opponent. The problem I find harder to deal with is the 20 def wall aspect, so I'm all for "bunch busters" (i.e. grenades, flamethrower) or ways to get around them (flight, wall climber). But very few of the figures that can be used effectively against act control (hi def, hi HP that can take some hits and stick around long enough to eventually get through) have any way around "the wall". It's absurd to watch Luke/Yoda/Mace waste their precious attacks to take out a sea of MDs.
That's my opinion anyway.

Maybe a SA like this would work:
"Intimidating: At the end of this character's turn, any enemy characters that have a printed damage of 0 must move to 3 squares away."

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 10:39 am 
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I'll share this in the interest of brainstorming:

Scrounge for Parts (replaces turn: choose one Droid character that was defeated earlier in this skirmish. The droid character joins this character's squad with 10 HP remaining and is placed adjacent to this character. Scrounged droids are worth no points when defeated and cannot be Scrounged a second time.)

Maybe this is on a young Anakin (Republic). The idea is to counter a ton of mouse droids by creating a risk that they will be turned against you - a bit like using a Rakghoul to counter a swarm squad. And it makes Lobot less attractive because he might get Scrounged too.

There are lots of ways to dial this in for balance: require the player using Scrounge to make a save 11, limit it to non-unique droids or to enemy droids or to droids worth X points or less, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 2:08 pm 
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barzillai wrote:
I'll share this in the interest of brainstorming:

Scrounge for Parts (replaces turn: choose one Droid character that was defeated earlier in this skirmish. The droid character joins this character's squad with 10 HP remaining and is placed adjacent to this character. Scrounged droids are worth no points when defeated and cannot be Scrounged a second time.)

Maybe this is on a young Anakin (Republic). The idea is to counter a ton of mouse droids by creating a risk that they will be turned against you - a bit like using a Rakghoul to counter a swarm squad. And it makes Lobot less attractive because he might get Scrounged too.

There are lots of ways to dial this in for balance: require the player using Scrounge to make a save 11, limit it to non-unique droids or to enemy droids or to droids worth X points or less, etc.

Hey, that's really cool! It's probably the most creative solution I've seen suggested yet. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:28 pm 
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barzillai wrote:
There are lots of ways to dial this in for balance: require the player using Scrounge to make a save 11, limit it to non-unique droids or to enemy droids or to droids worth X points or less, etc.


I think it should be limited to enemy droids that are 10 points or less, or else seps will never be played again....

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:10 pm 
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on a new Vong Character:

Razorbug Flurry: Replaces turn, Move 12 squares and razorbug every legal target
Droid Seeking Razorbug: Whenever this character uses razorbug, ignore cover against droids when selecting targets


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