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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:35 am 
Master of the Order
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Sithborg wrote:
Personally, a more creative option would be like this:

Pace of Battle: After all of your characters are activated, a character may take an immediate turn after every 2 activations the opponent uses.


I like the general idea. Would need some serious limitations. Maybe movement or immediate attack instead of a full turn.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:38 am 
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Agreed. A whole free extra turn with my power pieces cause you have a crap ton of activations could be very bad if not balanced correctly.

I really love the idea though. Maybe something like this as a commander effect for V-set 3? Limiting the CE to 6 squares ( in a faction w/o Booming Voice) would go a long way to making it balanced, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:47 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
Personally, a more creative option would be like this:

Pace of Battle: After all of your characters are activated, a character may take an immediate turn after every 2 activations the opponent uses.


Introduce in a small set to get it into play right away.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:58 am 
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Sithborg wrote:
Personally, a more creative option would be like this:

Pace of Battle: After all of your characters are activated, a character may take an immediate turn after every 2 activations the opponent uses.


I'm don't think I like that... I see it changing the came to the point of having the character who has that ability, 2-3 big hitters, and as little door control or tech that you think you can get away with. I think that would make for a much less tactical game. Although I tend to agree that the 10 mouse trick with Lobot can be lame, I don't have a problem with high-activation squads in general, especially if most of those pieces are actually useful instead of just extra acts.

Also, I know swarm squads aren't really competitive right now, but do we want to push them even further away? This ability would destroy the swam or Trooper-based squads.

I don't think the problem with mice is the high activation count necessarily, I think that's one symptom of the problem. The real issues, in my opinion, are Rapport and Reinforcements, and I would be fine with abilities that affected those. Rapport counters are a little harder to implement (you can't just ignore Rapport, because that will likely make your opponent's squad illegal), but maybe you can have Rapport be ignored for the purposes of Reserves and Reinforcements. That hurts the 10-mouse trick while not boning other high-activation or swarm-style squads in the process.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 11:32 am 
Master of the Order
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Engineer wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
Personally, a more creative option would be like this:

Pace of Battle: After all of your characters are activated, a character may take an immediate turn after every 2 activations the opponent uses.


Introduce in a small set to get it into play right away.


Um... :?


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 1:50 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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How's about making a special ability that makes all characters your opponent brings in via Reinforcements and Reserves (to include immediate reserves) cost 1 extra point? That's technically not a DIRECT counter to the 10 mouse droids, but still serves to limit the amount brought in.

Sincerely,
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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Jester007 wrote:
How's about making a special ability that makes all characters your opponent brings in via Reinforcements and Reserves (to include immediate reserves) cost 1 extra point? That's technically not a DIRECT counter to the 10 mouse droids, but still serves to limit the amount brought in.

Sincerely,
Jester007


Yeah, that's the kind of thing that I would really like to see. You could even couple that with something that says Rapport doesn't effect Reinforcements or Reserves, and your 10 mouse droids just became 5 mouse droids. A much better solution.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:03 pm 
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If it's the Gha Nackt + MDs that are the problem, modify his Rapport so that it only affects pieces 4 points or more. So that MDs stay 3 pts which means a 6 MD drop instead of a 10 MD drop.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:12 pm 
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That has been suggested before. The main arguement against it is that we should change as little about the game as it was when it was dropped as possible, to keep from alienating peope who dont keep up with the boards, etc.

By creating a new piece or ability that interacts with the old stuff in a new way, thats something different, and seems to be the general consensus on the way to go about helping maintain the games life.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:12 pm 
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I just don't see it. You get just as many mice without Gha in most cases. The only difference is the ability to bring 10 instead of 6 when you want to. But for the cost, you can do exactly the same thing, by putting 4 in your base squad, which costs exactly the same as inserting Gha. I just don't think it's nearly as powerful of a trick as you all make it out to be. Yoda and the Lancer kill Gha just as easy as the 4 mice you'd have in your base squad, but you still get 4 more activations to start the game.

for reference, Gha/Lobot = 39pts, or nearly 1/4 of a 200pt squad, and can give you 12 activations.

Lobot/4X Mice = 39pts, and can give you 11 activations, with the difference being that the last one can be a 5 pt figure more useful in game than Gha (like a Caamasi or Salcious Crumb). I much prefer not using Gha just for activations, it's a waste. It also despite what some thing, actually reduces your reserve options. Most people replace the 4 mice/ugs with gha so they can "max out" if they want to. But that also reduces base squad activations by 3, which in turn means they need at least 3 mice just to catch up, which leaves some of the really useful Lobot figures unavailable. For the advantage of 1 total activation, in squads that tend to have 23-25 anyways, I will always leave Gha out. Bringing in a TBSV or Lando is worth that loss when you need him. Outside of droid squads, Gha is overused, and doesn't really offer anything other than a person's perception of something they really don't have.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:26 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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billiv15 wrote:
I just don't see it. You get just as many mice without Gha in most cases. The only difference is the ability to bring 10 instead of 6 when you want to. But for the cost, you can do exactly the same thing, by putting 4 in your base squad, which costs exactly the same as inserting Gha. I just don't think it's nearly as powerful of a trick as you all make it out to be. Yoda and the Lancer kill Gha just as easy as the 4 mice you'd have in your base squad, but you still get 4 more activations to start the game.

for reference, Gha/Lobot = 39pts, or nearly 1/4 of a 200pt squad, and can give you 12 activations.

Lobot/4X Mice = 39pts, and can give you 11 activations, with the difference being that the last one can be a 5 pt figure more useful in game than Gha (like a Caamasi or Salcious Crumb). I much prefer not using Gha just for activations, it's a waste. It also despite what some thing, actually reduces your reserve options. Most people replace the 4 mice/ugs with gha so they can "max out" if they want to. But that also reduces base squad activations by 3, which in turn means they need at least 3 mice just to catch up, which leaves some of the really useful Lobot figures unavailable. For the advantage of 1 total activation, in squads that tend to have 23-25 anyways, I will always leave Gha out. Bringing in a TBSV or Lando is worth that loss when you need him. Outside of droid squads, Gha is overused, and doesn't really offer anything other than a person's perception of something they really don't have.

+1
This debate is currently going on in another thread as well, but you articulated it best, I think. Nice post, Bill. :)



At its core, the real problem isn't so much about the mouse droids themselves, as it is about squads which are designed to out-activate the opponent every round by strategically spinning scores of fodder pieces before getting back to playing the game. I think it's funny that people are always saying, "X squad would be good, but Yobuck and Lancer would eat it for breakfast"...but the very reason that Yobuck and Lancer are so dominant in the meta is because of the prevalence of mass-activation squads. Without the mass-act, fodder-spinning "strategy", Yobuck and Lancer would lose a lot of their value in the meta. Yes, their movement-breaking capabilities are significant...but the real significance comes from their ability to attack while making that movement.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:55 pm 
Really Cool Alien from a Cantina
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thereisnotry wrote:
At its core, the real problem isn't so much about the mouse droids themselves, as it is about squads which are designed to out-activate the opponent every round by strategically spinning scores of fodder pieces before getting back to playing the game. I think it's funny that people are always saying, "X squad would be good, but Yobuck and Lancer would eat it for breakfast"...but the very reason that Yobuck and Lancer are so dominant in the meta is because of the prevalence of mass-activation squads. Without the mass-act, fodder-spinning "strategy", Yobuck and Lancer would lose a lot of their value in the meta. Yes, their movement-breaking capabilities are significant...but the real significance comes from their ability to attack while making that movement.


I agree with what you and Bill said, but for those factions that cannot deal with a mouse droid wall (Vong and OR come to mind), its a different story. I didn't mind people out activating me when playing OR as long as got to grips with my opponent quickly. But you throw 10-12 mice in front to slow me down for a couple rounds, then it becomes an issue since OR doesn't really have anything to handle swarms.

As mentioned earlier, an average player won't bring in the 10 mice against lancer or yobuck. What I think the heart of the matter is how can the other factions make someone think twice about bringing in the mice.

But then if we just add more crowd control in the game, it makes it even more pointless for those people who want to run a hoard of Stormtroopers, Jawas, etc. Its going to take some ingenuity to make a balanced change.

Sincerely,
Jester007

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Last edited by Jester007 on Fri May 13, 2011 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:58 pm 
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So, the Painful Screech added to a Fringe Medium based character? Hmm. Some how, I think Lady Gaga would work as a mini. Small, plastic, and potentially toxic if ingested.

But, on topic, I was unaware of the modification of Gha's Rapport was explored.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 4:38 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Jester007 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
At its core, the real problem isn't so much about the mouse droids themselves, as it is about squads which are designed to out-activate the opponent every round by strategically spinning scores of fodder pieces before getting back to playing the game. I think it's funny that people are always saying, "X squad would be good, but Yobuck and Lancer would eat it for breakfast"...but the very reason that Yobuck and Lancer are so dominant in the meta is because of the prevalence of mass-activation squads. Without the mass-act, fodder-spinning "strategy", Yobuck and Lancer would lose a lot of their value in the meta. Yes, their movement-breaking capabilities are significant...but the real significance comes from their ability to attack while making that movement.


I agree with what you and Bill said, but for those factions that cannot deal with a mouse droid wall (Vong and OR come to mind), its a different story. I didn't mind people out activating me when playing OR as long as got to grips with my opponent quickly. But you throw 10-12 mice in front to slow me down for a couple rounds, then it becomes an issue since OR doesn't really have anything to handle swarms.

As mentioned earlier, an average player won't bring in the 10 mice against lancer or yobuck. What I think the heart of the matter is how can the other factions make someone think twice about bringing in the mice.

But then if we just add more crowd control in the game, it makes it even more pointless for those people who want to run a hoard of Stormtroopers, Jawas, etc. Its going to take some ingenuity to make a balanced change.

Sincerely,
Jester007

Good point...the fodder screens can be annoying to play against, especially when your squad lacks accurate shot or a method of easy crowd-control (flames, nades). Maybe what the Vong need is a cheap but cost-effective flamethrower. And maybe the OR need some cost-effective minis with LS sweep.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 7:39 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
Maybe what the Vong need is a cheap but cost-effective flamethrower. And maybe the OR need some cost-effective minis with LS sweep.


Considering we are aware of the Vong Firebreather coming out, Im thinkin these are both hints, lol.

How many points is the firebreather anyway?

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:47 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Disturbed1 wrote:
thereisnotry wrote:
Maybe what the Vong need is a cheap but cost-effective flamethrower. And maybe the OR need some cost-effective minis with LS sweep.


Considering we are aware of the Vong Firebreather coming out, Im thinkin these are both hints, lol.

How many points is the firebreather anyway?

No, they're not hints at all, sorry. :( I'm not one of the V-set designers, so I haven't made any hints or advertisements at all, other than to say that the upcoming V-sets are awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:20 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
I just don't see it. You get just as many mice without Gha in most cases. The only difference is the ability to bring 10 instead of 6 when you want to. But for the cost, you can do exactly the same thing, by putting 4 in your base squad, which costs exactly the same as inserting Gha. I just don't think it's nearly as powerful of a trick as you all make it out to be. Yoda and the Lancer kill Gha just as easy as the 4 mice you'd have in your base squad, but you still get 4 more activations to start the game.

for reference, Gha/Lobot = 39pts, or nearly 1/4 of a 200pt squad, and can give you 12 activations.

Lobot/4X Mice = 39pts, and can give you 11 activations, with the difference being that the last one can be a 5 pt figure more useful in game than Gha (like a Caamasi or Salcious Crumb). I much prefer not using Gha just for activations, it's a waste. It also despite what some thing, actually reduces your reserve options. Most people replace the 4 mice/ugs with gha so they can "max out" if they want to. But that also reduces base squad activations by 3, which in turn means they need at least 3 mice just to catch up, which leaves some of the really useful Lobot figures unavailable. For the advantage of 1 total activation, in squads that tend to have 23-25 anyways, I will always leave Gha out. Bringing in a TBSV or Lando is worth that loss when you need him. Outside of droid squads, Gha is overused, and doesn't really offer anything other than a person's perception of something they really don't have.

This is what I was trying to say in the other thread +1 to BILL


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:50 am 
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I agree to a large degree with what Bill wrote as well. There will always be certain aspects that define the meta, and people who complain about that aspect.

My feeling in general is that in high end competitive play (ie regionals or GenCon), whatever is legal and strongest is what should be used. It's silly to look down on a strong tactic. It's usually people who can't figure out how to beat it that complain the most, where as top end competitors figure out how to beat it.

In 2009 the Snowspeeder dominated. Several people used different tactics successfully to combat it. Bill brought in 1 extra activation to his squad (uggie and a camaasi instead of Juno) and it made the difference in some matches. Deri brought levitating snowspeeder hate with the one activation kill power of a juiced up ERC, and won it all.

Nothing in this meta is unbeatable. Stop complaining and calling it cheesy (for those that do) and figure out how to beat it.


If you just play casually, then make house rules or simple agreements not to use this tactic. Problem solved.


All this being said - I am fine with creative solutions that new pieces bring out - such as:

"Your droids aren't welcome here" - If this character is in your base squad, your opponent cannot bring in droids as reinforcements or reserves.

or

"Tax Collector" - If this character is in your base squad, Rapport is negated on all opponents reinforcements or reserves, and all characters 3 points or less cost 1 more


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 9:54 am 
Master of the Order
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Engineer wrote:
Sithborg wrote:
Personally, a more creative option would be like this:

Pace of Battle: After all of your characters are activated, a character may take an immediate turn after every 2 activations the opponent uses.


Introduce in a small set to get it into play right away.


I sincerely hope this isn't happening because it would be abusable to a huge degree. It would completely change everything. Bad, Bad idea


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:05 am 
Master of the Order
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Oh - and I should also say that I ran Gha + Lobot in both my Regional winning squads this year, but I never once brought in 10 mice.

Bill's point about limiting your reserve options is true to some extent, but there are options you didn't have before. An Amanin Scout + an R7 is impossible otherwise, but a great option in a Thrawn swap squad. Of course the biggest option it brings is the MTB + 6 MDs. It gives a big FU to Master tactician (or any tactician for that matter), and probably meant the difference in my finals match at Chicago Regionals vs Jason's Thrawn, Echanis and Atris.

You'd be crazy to put an MTB in your base squad (Lobot is the only reliable way to do it). Run into San or Nute, and you're screwed. It's redundant (actually a negative) in a Thrawn squad unless you face another Master Tactician. And 6 MDs is better as reinforcements than in the base squad because that's 6 rounds of free kills for the MTB.

Both teams in the finals at GenCon had the 10 mouse dump ability, and used it. It is no doubt a strong tactic. But I do agree to avoid the hard counter, and get creative.


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