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 Post subject: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 9:31 am 
Jedi Battlemaster
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Increasingly, the tactic of bringing in 10 Mouse Droids, using Gha and Lobot is seen to be prevalent in the top squads. We saw it on the GenCon 2010 winner, and so far 2 regional winning squads.

The strength of the tactic is that when combined with tempo control (generally Ozzel/Dodonna/San), it nearly guarantees that you get to have the final activation of the round. This allows you to either deal damage with your big attacker, or setup freely for your beginning of next round strike.

In fact, this tactic is so strong that many squads that would be able to handle the opposing squad, were this tactic no employed, are completed decimated, struggle to find low risk engagement points, and are quite frustrating to use.

From a competitive stand-point, do you think that this tactic is the current be-all, end-all of matches?

What kind of squads can still compete well even when this tactic is used by the opposing side?

What do you think of the tactic? Is it 'cheesy'? Within the spirit of the game? Perfectly reasonable since you're doing whatever it takes to get an advantage?

Do you think there should be a hard counter for this? What would it be/suggestions?

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 10:27 am 
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We need to be careful of the 'hard counter'. We already have 2 problems for that tactic; lancers and Yobuck. I would agree, however, that making it more problematic to do so is a good idea, much like the counters for Dodonna in DotF. Dodonna is still in top squads, but there are ways around him now. If I am understanding you when you say 'hard counter' I am interpreting that as a total nerf on the tactic, and I'd be against that.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:19 am 
Death Star Designers
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Easiest way to do something about it would be to have a piece that hurts reserves. Greentime had an idea for an ability that would either grant you reinforcements 15 or make your opponent's rienforcements drop in half.

In thinking about regionals this year I've noticed one big thing. No one is running rebels, my theory is they aren't running them because of the threat running up against bastilla will do to them. That doesn't mean they will get bastilla everytime but just the threat has caused players to shy away from it.

I've put some thought into that idea and I think just something that simple is enough of a threat to get people to shy away from the massmice.

That being said the 2 counters that are there currently make you play the 10 mouse squads completely differently. You'd be crazy to try that 10 mouse thing in a ozzel squad against a yobuck team for example. I think just a little push to make it less appealing would help a lot.

Then again we'd just find something else to break :).

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 11:35 am 
Master of the Order
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Darth_Jim wrote:
We need to be careful of the 'hard counter'. We already have 2 problems for that tactic; lancers and Yobuck. I would agree, however, that making it more problematic to do so is a good idea, much like the counters for Dodonna in DotF. Dodonna is still in top squads, but there are ways around him now. If I am understanding you when you say 'hard counter' I am interpreting that as a total nerf on the tactic, and I'd be against that.


Agree with this.

I would think something akin to Painful Screech on a small/medium character would help against mouse screens and would be useful in other situations. However, it would not help when the mice are all spread out and just being spun.

Just an idea, haven't put any thought into it, but what about an optional ability that could force the opponent to activate more than the normal number of characters on the next phase? (This of course could not be given to factions that have tempo control) Probably some bizarre interactions there. :?


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Id like to see more factions get a piece along the lines of Yobuck/ Lancer. Yes, they stop swarms like mice very well, but they arent the best choice in every situation.

If more factions had access to something like that, you might not see this issue as much, but everyone wont be playing the piece constantly, leaving room for people to continue with this tactic, if the piece isnt the end all be all on top of being able to counter this tactic.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 1:50 pm 
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We talked about something this weekend in Chicago. I'll let one of the others post about it.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:46 pm 
Master of the Order
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Things with Gallop and/or Strafe, that only did 10 base damage, and were limited in how they could be boosted by CEs would be ideal, but tough to pull off, IMO. The problem with Mice is their freaking 20 Defense. So in order to design anything to counter that piece, it has to have a high enough base attack to reliably kill Mouse Droids. But you also don't want people to be able to boost the snot out of the piece through other CEs and such.

Maybe if the piece had the old +10 against Droids ability that R2 Astromech has. Normally does 0 damage, but gets a tad extra against Droids?

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:52 pm 
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Hp 10
Attack 5
Defense 17
Damage 10

Droid Hunter +4 Attacl + 10 against Droids
Mouse Hunter +4 Attack +10 Damage agaisnt mouse droids


OK I know Mouse hunter is kinda silly... but it was the first thing that came to mind

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 2:54 pm 
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not bad...but I dont think you'll need the +10 damage to mice. Something like Mouse Hunter wouldn't be bad. Perhaps mouse hunter and grenades? or grenades designed especially for mice with a save 16?

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:13 pm 
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It might be the case that each faction has its own counter to mice swarms. Ironically the one that comes to mind is Republic, even though they have Yobuck. I have been playing the latest Star Wars game on the Wii, and I love that some of the clones can throw Droid Killer Grenades.


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:15 pm 
Mandalore
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Some kind of EMP wave that affects only/all droids in its area of effect, with a highish save vs resistance.

It would do 'damage' based on shutting down the droids systems per se, opposed to blowing them up or cutting them into pieces with a lightsaber.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:25 pm 
Death Star Designers
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There is the Reverse-polarity pulse grenade used by Arc Troopers and Electro Magnetic Pulse grenade (Droid Popper) used by standard clones. The down side is both of them affected the troopers HUD's, So they may also have to roll a save also. The Droid Popper would also affect adjacent living creatures with it's electrical jolt.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 3:30 pm 
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Darth_Jim wrote:
We need to be careful of the 'hard counter'. We already have 2 problems for that tactic; lancers and Yobuck. I would agree, however, that making it more problematic to do so is a good idea, much like the counters for Dodonna in DotF. Dodonna is still in top squads, but there are ways around him now. If I am understanding you when you say 'hard counter' I am interpreting that as a total nerf on the tactic, and I'd be against that.


Absolutely agree, hard counters should be avoided.

The real issue is the droids being brought in with Lobot. No one is going to put 10 mice in their main squad, because they're a big fat waste of points against Yobuck or Lancer. But when you have the option of either 10 mice OR a Bodyguard and an R7, that's what makes it really shine. As such, I think a counter to Reinforcements might do well. Weeks brought up an idea that Graham (greentime) had at one point, which was a character (I believe he was considering it on a G0-T0) who gave you the choice of either bringing in Reinforcements or reducing your opponent's reinforcements. If you play against somebody who doesn't have Reinforcements, you bring some in yourself. If they do have them (and you believe that their reinforcements will hurt you enough), you cancel theirs out.

A cheap droid-only AoO might be good, too. Something you can bring in with Lobot. You keep its cost down by it only affecting droids. People will still bring the 10 mice in, but this will force them to keep the droids in the back, out of the fight, just spinning. As a strategy, I think that bringing in the 10 mice is a lot more than just activation fodder. If you drop 10 mice and just sit them in the back spinning, you're not getting all you can out of them and will likely lose to a good player. Using the mice as 20 Defense walls is a much bigger deal I think

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2011 4:08 pm 
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LoboStele wrote:
Things with Gallop and/or Strafe, that only did 10 base damage, and were limited in how they could be boosted by CEs would be ideal, but tough to pull off, IMO. The problem with Mice is their freaking 20 Defense. So in order to design anything to counter that piece, it has to have a high enough base attack to reliably kill Mouse Droids. But you also don't want people to be able to boost the snot out of the piece through other CEs and such.

Maybe if the piece had the old +10 against Droids ability that R2 Astromech has. Normally does 0 damage, but gets a tad extra against Droids?


Electric Shock boosts damage where you really want high Attack in this case as you mention. Droid Hunter +6 is certainly possible but doesn't quite hit the mark as Mouse deterrence.

I think something like this works better...

Non-melee characters that do exactly 10 damage gain Precision Shot (Replaces Turn: 10 damage, save 16)

Trade movement for 75% chance to hit. Can never be boosted to multiple attacks nor greater damage so it's only really useful on a character with low attack trying to do damage to a high-defense target. Stormies might take a slight hit there. And combine fire suffers, but it's already mostly a dead tactic for scrubs assisting scrubs.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 8:57 pm 
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I think Mouse Droids when used for extending CE Range are great. The 10 Mouse Dump trick, I think is one of the lamest cheese fest moves in the game.

I hate playing the weenie spin game.

I had an idea today thinking about Atris and Bastilla's Force Abilities and I came up with an extremely far out idea. What if there was something that totally changed the game for a single Round where the turn mechanic completely changed. Instead of the back and forth turn taking, everything instead happened simultaneously for a round and damage was assessed at the end of the round. Activations would play no factor for a round. Cunning, Opportunist, Stuns, etc. would also be negated.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Wookiee Roar (Replaces Attacks: Remove all characters named Mouse Droid within 6 from the board. They are considered defeated)

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 4:34 am 
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When we address this by actually killing the mouse droids with a special ability, we are both nerfing the activation advantage and the defensive screen. Do we want to go that far? What about an ability like a stun grenade... say, save 16 that activates all droids with an attack value of 0?

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 7:34 am 
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We've already got EMP Grenades and Painful Screech (smaller range than WR, but still kills stuff).
Just need to put them on more pieces, or if flavor is a problem, then make similar SAs.

A stun grenade with a bigger range would be fun in any case.
I see no need to specifically target mouse droids with an SA, unless it fits flavor like WR.
I could see WR sending them scurrying away... kind of like Rout?


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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 8:43 am 
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I like the wookiee roar idea, but agree the version sithborg listed seems (while situational) over the top.

Maybe something that could get more use where it affects all characters on a small base within 6 squares, save 11 or 16 or whatever, or they must move 6 squares away using the same movement rules as Force Push.

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 Post subject: Re: The 10-mouse dump
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 9:25 am 
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Personally, a more creative option would be like this:

Pace of Battle: After all of your characters are activated, a character may take an immediate turn after every 2 activations the opponent uses.

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