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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:06 pm 
Imperial Dignitaries
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Why is it a bad/undesirable thing if the Jedi Challenge is competitive? Similarly, when did the Jedi Challenge focus on non-competitive (ie, "fun") play?

The simple fact is, whenever you have a great prize (ie, a complete sealed set) for the winner of an event, there will always be a number of players who really want to win that prize, and who will then play top-tier stuff in hopes of winning it all. We actually had a similar dilemma in the GVL, a couple of years ago: the GVL was supposed to be a league that was 100% entirely designed to be non-competitive...however, the problem was that if you wanted to earn more new minis to use, you had to win games...which led to people using some of the most competitive squads that they could, so that they could more easily earn more new minis to use. And then we wondered why some people were complaining that other people were using competitive squads (or at least, using squads that were as competitive as possible in the format). In summary: Whenever you tie rewards to winning, you are creating a competitive atmosphere. It will never work to have a purely non-competitive (or "relaxed" or "fun") event when there are significant rewards for winning that event.

If we have awesome rewards for the Jedi Challenge again this year, then we can expect to find lots of competitive squads and competitive players, as we have in the past. But if, on the other hand, we dis-associate the grand prize from the players' performances, then the players will have no reason to play competitively, and will feel more inclined to play 33-Ewok Swarms and "fun" theme squads. Then, and only then, can you have a truly non-competitive event. Suggestion: rather than awarding the grand prize to the player with the best win-loss (SOS) record, maybe we could randomly draw the prize winner's name from a hat at the end of the tournament. Dis-associate the prize from performance.


As for people wanting a chance to get some last-chance practice for the Championship, then I'm 100% in agreement with LoboStele. Each year, I have been very grateful for the chance to practice my Championship squad one last time before the big event. Whether that 200pt tournament needs to be in the Jedi Challenge is another topic, but I personally see a great deal of value in having a practice tournament.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:25 pm 
Big Bad Brad
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thereisnotry wrote:
Why is it a bad/undesirable thing if the Jedi Challenge is competitive? Similarly, when did the Jedi Challenge focus on non-competitive (ie, "fun") play?

The simple fact is, whenever you have a great prize (ie, a complete sealed set) for the winner of an event, there will always be a number of players who really want to win that prize, and who will then play top-tier stuff in hopes of winning it all. We actually had a similar dilemma in the GVL, a couple of years ago: the GVL was supposed to be a league that was 100% entirely designed to be non-competitive...however, the problem was that if you wanted to earn more new minis to use, you had to win games...which led to people using some of the most competitive squads that they could, so that they could more easily earn more new minis to use. And then we wondered why some people were complaining that other people were using competitive squads (or at least, using squads that were as competitive as possible in the format). In summary: Whenever you tie rewards to winning, you are creating a competitive atmosphere. It will never work to have a purely non-competitive (or "relaxed" or "fun") event when there are significant rewards for winning that event.

If we have awesome rewards for the Jedi Challenge again this year, then we can expect to find lots of competitive squads and competitive players, as we have in the past. But if, on the other hand, we dis-associate the grand prize from the players' performances, then the players will have no reason to play competitively, and will feel more inclined to play 33-Ewok Swarms and "fun" theme squads. Then, and only then, can you have a truly non-competitive event. Suggestion: rather than awarding the grand prize to the player with the best win-loss (SOS) record, maybe we could randomly draw the prize winner's name from a hat at the end of the tournament. Dis-associate the prize from performance.


As for people wanting a chance to get some last-chance practice for the Championship, then I'm 100% in agreement with LoboStele. Each year, I have been very grateful for the chance to practice my Championship squad one last time before the big event. Whether that 200pt tournament needs to be in the Jedi Challenge is another topic, but I personally see a great deal of value in having a practice tournament.



Well, if I changed less taxing to less competitive in a secondary post, then my mistake. Still you guys read these words waaay too literally, besides the intent really should have been clear from the list of options I presented... Plus I already corrected my use of the word "fun", so I'm not sure why you felt it necessary to reiterate tha point, unless you didn't read the whole post before commenting...

Whether or not the 200 needs to be in the Jedi Challenge is NOT another topic...It's exactly what this topic is about. Personally, though, as I tried to explain to Lobostele, that if you can use the Jedi Challenge to practice for the Championships, then the Jedi Challenges really isn't what he defines it to be when he said
LoboStele wrote:
The Challenge was always supposed to be that. An alternate form of the Championship, to see who was not only a good player in the Championship format, but in all formats..


Sure, if we make it Faction Pure or whatever, people will play the best squads they can. So what? It still changes the overall level of competitiveness that we're used to in Championship games, and that is not a clearly established Meta. And it's not the same old, same old. People brought the same 200 point squad to THREE different events last year (Mystery Map, JC 200 and Championships). C'mon guys, we can do better.

Or like Lobostele's other suggestion of adding 50 points to the same squad at each level. Sure you can still bring your Championship squad to the 200, but good luck paring it down from there to 150 and 100. If you can do that, kudos to you and you deserve to win that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:36 pm 
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I'm in favor of leaving it the way it is.

Fun tourneys are great, but if im spending as much money and time as i do to go gencon I'd rather it be competitve the entire time.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:42 pm 
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Weeks wrote:
I'm in favor of leaving it the way it is.

Fun tourneys are great, but if im spending as much money and time as i do to go gencon I'd rather it be competitve the entire time.



Ok, I'm not reiterating what I just said RIGHT before you posted this...please read it hough.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:56 pm 
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It would be difficult to make it where each do the whole add 50 thing or faction pure thing or whatever because then no "random" people would sign up or would have the wrong squad etc. and by random I mean walking by the con or looking through the book saying what do I want to do now?

I also agree with Brad that the Championship point level should be removed from the JC.

I certainly wouldn't see a problem with 100, 150, DD, Tile wars, etc or even 125, 175, and R+R selaed (ooh I like this idea).

I will say that I have never played in a JC event because of the fact I didn't want to play against the top stuff at the Championship pt level. I want to save my super competitive day for the actual champs and play more fun type stuff at other events.

Just my 2 cents worth.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:50 am 
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Fwiw, I'd like to see the JC go to 100, 150, and Tile Wars. As long as Mystery Map is a 200 point tourney and the Champs are 200 points, I feel like we've got enough 200 point stuff going on. Jedi Challenge then becomes a test of who is the best player across all the non-200 formats. And, you eliminate the issue of, "Scooter just ran his Champs squad for Saturday in the JC so Scooter is a jerk" (which I think is a stupid thing to say about Scooter, btw--he should run whatever he wants). People will run the best stuff they can think for 100, 150, and Tile Wars, and since those formats require very different things than what we see in 200, we'll get to see different pieces being used in competitive ways.

I think 30 and 45 minutes for 100 and 150 might be a bit short for my taste, but I get where the impulse is coming from.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:54 am 
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I can say that I loved the idea of the mystery map tourny I wish I was able to be at gen con for that.
Anyways on topic for the jc I agree that 200 pnt should be removed and replaced wth somthing else. (I love the idea of a sealed, that has always been one of my fav formats)
I would agree with tile wars over dynamic duo though. I wouldn't be opposed of removing the 150 either but 100 has been all but forgotten and as a way to keep it alive should be kept for that reason alone.
As a side note for people that want a non-competative and highly fun event to do. There is always the 3-4 player royal rumble that I hve a blast if I win or lose. I personlly would do this event if there was prize support or not and I'm certain others would join me.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:08 am 
Imperial Dignitaries
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
Whether or not the 200 needs to be in the Jedi Challenge is NOT another topic...It's exactly what this topic is about.

Okay, fair enough. If that's the discussion, then I'd go with Buttcabbge's suggestion of 100, 150, and TW as the 3 parts of the JC. Either that or 150, TW, and 250/300 (since I’m not a huge fan of 100pts).

The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
People brought the same 200 point squad to THREE different events last year (Mystery Map, JC 200 and Championships). C'mon guys, we can do better.

I was one of the people who brought my championship squad (Skybuck) to all 3 of the 200pt events last year. I can do better? Better how? What would be better? Comments like this only serve 1 purpose, and that is to shame those at whom they’re aimed.

As I (and others) have commented in the other thread, it will not be helpful to build a culture of shame around what squads people bring. I'm not ashamed of bringing Skybuck to 3 tournies at Gencon this year, for these reasons:
1) I wanted to do well (and hopefully win the prize). If you would've grappled with my comments in my above post (Whenever you tie rewards to winning, you are creating a competitive atmosphere), you would see why I brought my best squad to the Jedi Challenge, and why I'll do it again.
2) Despite the fact that SOME players had a lot of opportunity to prepare themselves against the best of the best, I didn’t. There was no Vassal Regional in 2010, and my local Regional had less than 10 players, only 3 of which would be considered strong players. I still needed lots of practice, and yes, that practice made a huge difference in my performance in the Championship; I am sure that I would not have made the Top 8 this year without the extra practice that the MM and JC tournaments provided.
3) If I’m travelling a long way and paying a lot of money to play in a tournament, I’m not going to play a sub-par squad. This is especially true since I don’t see a real distinction between “fun” and “competitive.”
4) I simply enjoy playing Skybuck. It’s truly fun, while also being highly competitive. It’s probably the most enjoyable squad I’ve ever played at 200pts, for a number of reasons that I don’t need to go into here.

I really don't see any good reason why any player should be insulted for his choice of squads. If you want different squads to show up, then change the format; a new format creates a new meta (ie, TW). But you can be sure that a meta will emerge, and that players will still play the top-tier squads of that meta.

I've always enjoyed the Jedi Challenge, and I hope that we'll continue to have one at Gencon every year. I do like the suggestions of shortening the duration of the smaller-pt events, and I do see some benefit to dropping the 200pt leg of the Challenge in favor of another format (see above in this post).

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:46 am 
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If we change the JC to include non-competitive events, then I'm not playing in it. I don't want to play Tile Wars or any other special ruleset as a part of a competitive event (the goal is winning the entire thing - showing you are a good player at all three formats). If I wanted to play Tile Wars, I would sign up for that.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:53 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
If we change the JC to include non-competitive events, then I'm not playing in it. I don't want to play Tile Wars or any other special ruleset as a part of a competitive event (the goal is winning the entire thing - showing you are a good player at all three formats). If I wanted to play Tile Wars, I would sign up for that.


Ok, I'm not sure how Tile Wars can't be considered competitive, so I guess I'm asking for an expounding on this. People are still expected to bring the best squads to any format, some formats are just less taxing than others. 15 minutes per round vs 1hr or even just mentally.

@Trevor, my apologies as that wasn't my intent. I also never meant to say you can't bring a competitive squad, why does it have to be the same one? Which you aswered already.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:30 pm 
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What's wrong with swapping out the 200 for a sealed event? Then the champs would be the champ and the JC would test everything else.

I also think that there should be a warm-up 200 pt tourney just not part of the JC.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:25 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
If we change the JC to include non-competitive events, then I'm not playing in it. I don't want to play Tile Wars or any other special ruleset as a part of a competitive event (the goal is winning the entire thing - showing you are a good player at all three formats). If I wanted to play Tile Wars, I would sign up for that.


I guess I don't agree with the idea that Tile Wars is "non-competitive". There's a different Meta, to be sure, in which some things are less powerful (activation control, for instance), some things are more powerful (cunning, area attacks), and some things maintain nearly the same power level (disruptive, accurate). But it can certainly be played in a very competitive, thoughtful manner--it just requires different kinds of builds. The fact that the same players (Joruus, for instance) often do well in both 200 and TW would seem to suggest that the fundamental competitive skill set you need to do well in 200 is pretty darn helpful in TW as well. If it were just back alley craps, you'd presumably see totally random winners in TW, but as far as I know, that hasn't really been the case.

If what you mean is that luck plays a bigger factor in TW than it does in 200, I'd agree with that, but luck also plays a bigger factor in 100 than 200, and it's in JC. And there's always luck in SWM, but probably less than most people think--either that or the best players sure seem to have an uncanny ability to make their own luck.

FWIW, I'm not entirely convinced that JC is broken the way that it is--I just think that MM + JC + Champs is an awful lot of 200 pt constructed in a weekend where we can only fit so many events. But if JC came back the exact same way next year, I'd still play it.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:17 pm 
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TW isn't competitive because the vast amount of players don't play it very often. Many probably only play it 1-2 times a year. And that's fine, but any special rules format, is vastly different than a simple change in points. I don't personally, and most players would agree, particularly care for who is the best Tile Wars player (or any other special rules format). In the end, its generally going to be the guys who play it the most often, because its vastly different than a regular game. That doesn't tell me anything about the skill level of the players (or much anyways). Further, the people who play the event, are not entirely the same as those who play JC. There is a reason for that. Some people want to play a goofy ruleset for the purpose of not playing as they see it the "same old squads". And others do it because they know it will be a less competitive event (note, I did not say it wasn't competitive). Some play it to dominate the format, and that's fine too. To say it has the same competitive level as 200pts however, is wrong.

Now on to the Sealed suggestion, that's not bad and I'd consider that. But I would still want another 200pt event run at Gencon in its place, so I'm honestly not sure it gets us anywhere other than some arbitrary changing it up concept. I don't think it's a particularly great idea, and I'm honestly not at all on board with removing the 200pt tournament from the JC. If anything, I'd suggest removing 100, but I'm not really even for that either.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:43 pm 
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I agree there should be a 200 pt regular tourney at gencon. Just not sure it needs to be part of the JC.

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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:55 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
TW isn't competitive because the vast amount of players don't play it very often. Many probably only play it 1-2 times a year. And that's fine, but any special rules format, is vastly different than a simple change in points. I don't personally, and most players would agree, particularly care for who is the best Tile Wars player (or any other special rules format). In the end, its generally going to be the guys who play it the most often, because its vastly different than a regular game. That doesn't tell me anything about the skill level of the players (or much anyways). Further, the people who play the event, are not entirely the same as those who play JC. There is a reason for that. Some people want to play a goofy ruleset for the purpose of not playing as they see it the "same old squads". And others do it because they know it will be a less competitive event (note, I did not say it wasn't competitive). Some play it to dominate the format, and that's fine too. To say it has the same competitive level as 200pts however, is wrong.


Okay, I'll grant your point there, although I might add that a lot of what you say is true of 100 points as well (unless tons of people are regularly playing 100 point tournies that I don't know about, which is certainly possible). I actually do think Tile Wars strategy is pretty fascinating--I've played more in the last year than I had previously, and while the impulse is to assume that "uber-damage-kewl!" squads will dominate, there really is a lot of finesse.

But your point that it is a less competitive event simply because fewer people are thinking hard about it on a regular basis is rather undeniably true.


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 Post subject: Re: Interesting Topic #2: A Revised Jedi Challenge?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:58 am 
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As the 2009 Jedi Challenge winner I will say this: I didn't even know what the prize was until halfway through the events. I did not play for the prize. I have never played ANY Star Wars Miniatures tournament for a prize. Prizes are just icing - winning is the cake. I actually don't know too many people who do play for the prizes. Outside the $5000 championship in 2007 (which is still small potatoes compared to many other games), we've never had any prizes that make the investment worth the prize alone. People play because they like the game and those who play competitively thrive on that. Then if we win cool prize it's a bonus.

And Tile Wars not showing skill? I actually think the most skilled players with just a little effort end up being the best TILE WARS players too. I don't think ANYONE could call past GenCon champs Deri Morgan and Phillip Carlisle unskilled in any arena of Minis.


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