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 Post subject: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 9:38 am 
Jedi Knight
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I've been working on ideas for the Landspeeder in 200, in case I can make it to Gen Con this year, I'm really rusty so I want to stick with something familiar. Here's an update of my old squad from 2007:

1 Luke's Landspeeder 47
1 Han Solo, Rebel Hero 35
1 Ferus Olin 27
1 Princess Leia 20
1 General Crix Madine 16
2 Elite Rebel Commando 32
1 General Rieekan 14
3 Mouse Droid 9

200 points, 11 activations.

The Landspeeder and the two ERC's are the main firepower - twin attacks backed up by Leia. Ferus guards the Landspeeder, Leia and Han, and he's a nasty threat too. I thought about a Strike Leader to give the commandos super-stealth, but that seemed redundant with Rieekan. Wish I could work in Wicket to help those commandos hit more often since they are twinning for 40 each with cunning/advantageous.


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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:05 am 
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I really think you'll want some Ugnaughts in there. Double-Override just doesn't always cut it anymore, with a lot of people having easy access to Triple/Quad override.

Overall, I think you're trying to do two different things (Landspeeder and Commandos) but not really doing either one to it's fullest. To really pimp out the Landspeeder, I think you really need a Force Spirit (Anakin is great here, to give Ferus/Leia/Han Mettle as well). If you want to go the Commandos route, I think Luke RC is the better path to take.

Here's the Landspeeder squad I put together for right now. It plays pretty well, though I'm not sure I like it as much as some other Rebel builds I've played with.

--Dark Cannon--
47 Luke's Landspeeder
27 Ferus Olin
27 Han Solo, Smuggler
27 Lobot
20 Princess Leia
14 General Rieekan
12 Anakin Skywalker, Force Spirit
9 General Dodonna
8 Juno Eclipse
6 Mouse Droid x2
3 Ugnaught Demolitionist

(200pts. 12 activations)

You could still go the Crix/Commando route if you really wanted to by dropping Lobot/Juno.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:26 am 
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Sometimes I wish Han Smuggler wasn't such a natural fit for so many Rebel squads, it's getting really hard to justify any of the other Hans. You would think Cunning + Advantageous would make Han RH work well in a Commando squad, but it's so much better to have a mix of cunning and Opportunist in today's game, where you need to press the attack the whole round. And Han Smuggler is the only Rebel opportunist follower. So whether I'm building a landspeeder squad, or a commando squad, I will probably end up with Han Smuggler in it. Sigh. Let me think about this some more.


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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:33 am 
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I like runnng Han, Smuggler and Aurra Sing in Rebel Commando squads. It has a nice balance to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:58 am 
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I think you can go differently with the Landspeeder than simply a cookie cutter Rebel squad.

--Landspeeder Cannon 2010--
47 Luke's Landspeeder
27 Ferus Olin
27 Han Solo, Smuggler
27 Lobot
20 Princess Leia
14 General Rieekan
12 Anakin Skywalker, Force Spirit
12 Gha Nachkt
8 Juno Eclipse
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

Now, you will notice no Dodonna, that's because I already have 11-21 activations. I stuck with Han because of two reasons, obviously being a Rebel Follower (so not having to downgrade Leia to the Bothan - the extra +4/10 is significant) and accurate shot. The Opp I can honestly take or leave. It's useful, but I've always liked Cunning attack better myself. Which leads me to one possible change - Han on Tauntaun.

Now, I didn't go with Hantaun because it just didn't fit right - but the ability to access mettle would be nice, even if only once (1FP I think). Alternately, since Smuggler doesn't get rerolls in this anyway, another option I considered was Han in ST. Ferus can charge 12 and hit for 30 then 40, and of course the LS can run 22 as well. In the end, I went with accurate shot, and Han Smugg is the cheapest with good damage and attack I can get to back up the LS. I like the idea of Han RH, but I don't like that he isn't a follower, and so there is not back up use for Leia (well I guess Ferus - but I mean shooter wise to prevent disruptive issues). This is significant because should I face Kyle, I would use Juno to disrupt Kyle/Mara (evade), and pound him with Leia/Han while the LS tried to lock up Kyle and Mara in close. The LS functions well as an interference piece, especially with it's nice high hp BG :)

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:09 am 
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Thanks guys. I was trying for something a little out of the ordinary, that's why I was trying not to use Smuggler - I guess anything with the Landspeeder in it would be a bit unusual. Smuggler is just the best alternate gun for Leia to work with. And when the LS is running interference for Han, it can sometimes pull off a Jedi Mind Trick to set him up for Opportunist... okay, now that I thought that through, I really like Smuggler here.

The other reasons not to downgrade Leia to a Bothan is that Ferus can't bodyguard a Bothan, and a Bothan won't get Mettle on evade rerolls. I really like the synergy of adding Anakin and Ferus to the classic cannon.

So if the core of the squad is Landspeeder, Leia, Ferus, Rieekan, Anakin FS, and at least a handful of Mouse Droids (3) so Leia can stay safe, that leaves 71 points for additional attackers (Han, 27) and tech (44). Bill, as usual I think you've dialed in the support very well - great point about Juno. The only thing I would maybe think twice about is the 18 points you're spending on Gha Nacht and two Ugnaughts - either I would go with 18 points of mice and ugs straight up, or I would go with Gha and 3 discounted mice, letting the Ugs be part of the reinforcements if they are needed. I feel like I'm always going to want some mice, and if I've got 3 in the base build, that frees me up to customize all 20 points of reinforcements a bit more. So I'd probably go with this:

1 Luke's Landspeeder 47
1 Lobot 27
1 Han Solo, Smuggler 27
1 Ferus Olin 27
1 Princess Leia 20
1 General Rieekan 14
1 Gha Nachkt 12
1 Anakin Skywalker, Force Spirit 12
1 Juno Eclipse 8
3 Mouse Droid 6
200 points, 13 to 22 activations. Sure looks like it would be fun to play.


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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:16 am 
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Nice. I'm still not sure if I agree with dropping Dodonna though. What does that really get you? Granted, you get some respect for playing without Dodonna, but I don't think it's quite as competitive as it could be. Sure, you get 22 activations total, but the squad I posted above has up to 18 activations (thanks to Lobot), AND has Dodonna still. Other than having a bunch of free mice for screening operations against a Vong opponent or something, I don't really see the advantage. I get just as irritated as the next person at seeing Dodonna in every squad, but hey, that's the game, and it would seem to me that it'd be better to run this squad WITH him. Do whatever you have to in order to win, right? At least at big events like GenCon.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:21 am 
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Well, not a problem switching out the ugs. I just always want at least 2 ugs, and I like the option of bringing in R7 with 6 mice, but if you already have 3 in the main build, that would leave 2 ugs and 7 mice, so same activations in then end, with an option for 22 if you run 0 ugs (I wouldn't personally do that ever, so I don't usually worry about that as an option for one activation - but no reason you couldn't). It's just for me, having the ugs in the build, means I am more free to vary my reinforcements. I can run a TBSV if I want to (Ferus GMA, back up shooter), etc. I can also bring in a T1 - odd option I know, but might be fun in some odd matchups you might see at a tournament.

Oh and a point I forgot to mention, there is an additional reason multiple mice is much preferred over Dodonna in this build. Blocking. The Landspeeder with evade, fprr/mettle, renewal (and 6fps to start lol) will only be based when I want it based. Dodonna prevents the right set of tech by forcing the loss of gha, anakin or juno - all of which are more important. Further, the multiple mice make sure it's not easy to remove Anakin and Leia's CEs quickly. But since they are reinforcements, I can also choose another option should I face Yobuck/Lancer as well. Felucian's can be pretty fun in this :) But please don't miss that this build is designed to use 10 mice as defensive pieces as much as activations and relay orders when you consider making changes, etc. They are there for multiple reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:27 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
Nice. I'm still not sure if I agree with dropping Dodonna though. What does that really get you? Granted, you get some respect for playing without Dodonna, but I don't think it's quite as competitive as it could be. Sure, you get 22 activations total, but the squad I posted above has up to 18 activations (thanks to Lobot), AND has Dodonna still. Other than having a bunch of free mice for screening operations against a Vong opponent or something, I don't really see the advantage. I get just as irritated as the next person at seeing Dodonna in every squad, but hey, that's the game, and it would seem to me that it'd be better to run this squad WITH him. Do whatever you have to in order to win, right? At least at big events like GenCon.


Really? Screening Vong is the only thing you can do with 10 mice? I'm sorry, but this is better with the mice. 24d in cover blockers and door openers. I considered Dodonna vs Gha when I built this, and I chose to run Gha and the mice rather than Dodonna because I believe it's better - not because I wanted some kind of special kid award. Explain to me how your non accurate shooters will hit my speeder? Then explain to me what your accurate shooters are going to do when they can't base my speeder/leia/ferus because I have a wall of mice in front, granting evade with mettle rerolls. That's the point of the ugs, it's a much stronger defensive position if I want it than using Dodonna in my opinion - even in the mirror. Consider this. I set up my shots before you, take them, set up my mice, etc all why you burn your scrubs. I leave you the last 3-5 acts, whatever for that one round of engagement. Are you going to pop shot mice for 6 rounds while I move into a strong position? Are you going to try to accurate shoot my crew with mettle evades? What exactly is the advantage of Dodonna in this squad?

Also, let's not forget, Gha is a spectacular gambit collector. He's worth nothing in the build, so you can sac him for a few rounds of gambit every game. Totally worth it on most maps, and keeps your command crew running free as needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:44 am 
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T1 is not a bad option at all. It can pick up the landspeeder which is sometimes handy. Okay, now I'm sold on Gha Nachkt too, just so I'll have something fun to do late in the tournament after I've been eliminated from serious contention.


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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:52 am 
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Yay! I was really hoping someone would run my Landspeeder squad. I really like it, and nearly ran it at Regionals (if I could go to a third, it or Sith would be my next squad). Since I'll be judging the Champs, it will be fun to see what you can do with it. Personally, i think it deals with the current meta rather well, and if you do your usual practice and prep, you should do very well with it.

Although don't spend too many hours playing against Eric's droid squad - as that's probably it's worst match up in terms of getting a full victory, although the odds of him killing you are next to 0 anyway - just play for 2pts and move on :)

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:54 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Nice. I'm still not sure if I agree with dropping Dodonna though. What does that really get you? Granted, you get some respect for playing without Dodonna, but I don't think it's quite as competitive as it could be. Sure, you get 22 activations total, but the squad I posted above has up to 18 activations (thanks to Lobot), AND has Dodonna still. Other than having a bunch of free mice for screening operations against a Vong opponent or something, I don't really see the advantage. I get just as irritated as the next person at seeing Dodonna in every squad, but hey, that's the game, and it would seem to me that it'd be better to run this squad WITH him. Do whatever you have to in order to win, right? At least at big events like GenCon.


Really? Screening Vong is the only thing you can do with 10 mice? I'm sorry, but this is better with the mice. 24d in cover blockers and door openers. I considered Dodonna vs Gha when I built this, and I chose to run Gha and the mice rather than Dodonna because I believe it's better - not because I wanted some kind of special kid award. Explain to me how your non accurate shooters will hit my speeder? Then explain to me what your accurate shooters are going to do when they can't base my speeder/leia/ferus because I have a wall of mice in front, granting evade with mettle rerolls. That's the point of the ugs, it's a much stronger defensive position if I want it than using Dodonna in my opinion - even in the mirror. Consider this. I set up my shots before you, take them, set up my mice, etc all why you burn your scrubs. I leave you the last 3-5 acts, whatever for that one round of engagement. Are you going to pop shot mice for 6 rounds while I move into a strong position? Are you going to try to accurate shoot my crew with mettle evades? What exactly is the advantage of Dodonna in this squad?

Also, let's not forget, Gha is a spectacular gambit collector. He's worth nothing in the build, so you can sac him for a few rounds of gambit every game. Totally worth it on most maps, and keeps your command crew running free as needed.


I certainly agree with the use of 10 mice for screening and such. But with my build, I can still get up to 8 mice total (2 in the build to start with). I fail to see how that is THAT much of a difference. I'm thinking in terms of other possibly bad matchups. Like, if you don't run Dodonna, how do you deal with a Lord Vader swap squad with a ton of activations, or worse, Ozzel? Granted, it's not the best variant of a swap squad, but it would give you trouble for sure. Your mice can't do anything to block LV with Leap, and you have no way to protect yourself against Master Tactician either, so Vader would almost be guaranteed a kill. Or what about NR with Ganner? They don't care about a Mouse Droid screen either, as they outactivate you and then Ganner just Levitates Mara/Kyle right past it. Obviously, Yobuck squads you wouldn't use Mouse Droids for your reinforcements, as they're just easy fodder for Yoda to kill, but then you're only looking at about 14-15 activations (depending on your reinforcements, bodyguard, override, etc.). Yobuck will be ahead of you on activations by the 2nd round, and then you'll rarely (if ever) get to use Han's Opportunist at that point. What about a Pawned Lancer build? Not unusual for those to have 20+ activations, or something like Tim's squad from Chicago with San and the MTB. Gha and Mouse Droids don't help at all with that. Granted, that particular matchup, Dodonna might not help much either (i forget how many activations Tim had), but it would at least be closer, especially once the MTB starts offing pieces.

I fully understand the value of Mouse Droids and denying non-accurate shooters their attacks. I understand using them for screens, and extending your CEs and such. I'm just not convinced that those reasons are enough to run it that way instead of Dodonna. As I said above. You can still get 8 mouse droids in my suggested build if you want. That should be more than enough for any screening or CE boosting that you need AND you still get the benefit of tempo control.

Probably just comes down to personal preference I guess. I just feel that it's stronger with Dodonna.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:54 pm 
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This is a really interesting discussion. I realize it's a Landspeeder squad, but I wonder if it might be stronger to use the Snowspeeder instead?

These are the first reasons to come to mind, though I'm sure there are others as well:
-it saves you 2 pts which allows another Mouse into the main build
-Ferus can still BG the SS, and the SS still gets evade
-the SS laughs at Vong
-the SS has better Defense as well as DR, so any shots that do get through will do less dmg
-you don't need to use the SS's long range (but choose to stay near Anakin instead), though the option of a deeper strike is certianly there.

So, given those reasons, I guess I'm curious how the LS > SS in this build. Or is it just personal preference?

--Cheap Snowspeeder--
45 Luke's Snowspeeder
27 Ferus Olin
27 Han Solo, Smuggler
27 Lobot
20 Princess Leia
14 General Rieekan
12 Anakin Skywalker, Force Spirit
12 Gha Nachkt
8 Juno Eclipse
2 Mouse Droid
6 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2

(200pts. 12 activations, + up to 10 with reinforcements)

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:10 pm 
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Ok point by point :)
LoboStele wrote:
I certainly agree with the use of 10 mice for screening and such. But with my build, I can still get up to 8 mice total (2 in the build to start with). I fail to see how that is THAT much of a difference.
With one ug in the build. I have 2 already. Now, let's assume you go with at least one ug as a reinforcement (playing the game with one is not competitive). That means at most you get 7 mice. Not bad, and sure, you outactivate. What are you collecting gambit with? Dodonna? My gambit collector is superior, as he is virtually worthless to the squad once the game begins. That's an advantage in certain situations (which is what competitive play is all about as you know).

LoboStele wrote:
Like, if you don't run Dodonna, how do you deal with a Lord Vader swap squad with a ton of activations, or worse, Ozzel? Granted, it's not the best variant of a swap squad, but it would give you trouble for sure. Your mice can't do anything to block LV with Leap, and you have no way to protect yourself against Master Tactician either, so Vader would almost be guaranteed a kill.
Not concerned in the least, not going to see a competitive version with Ozzel, so not going to worry about playing it. Squad would have to face it twice to even make it matter at all to me.

LoboStele wrote:
Or what about NR with Ganner? They don't care about a Mouse Droid screen either, as they outactivate you and then Ganner just Levitates Mara/Kyle right past it.
That's why there are 10. exactly how are you basing me? You can't base if I'm fully surrounded. You can base Ferus if you want to perhaps, but that's ok with me. In fact I encourage it :) And please don't mention grenades as an option. If you waste kyle and ganner throwing a grenade at me, I'm perfectly happy with that as well. Nope, you will have to attack the wall, before you can levitate. And if you do not, kill something, then levitate in one phase, the hole won't be there next phase. Which means no cunning attack for Mara on the Speeder. Not to mention I still have LS deflect, which means Mara isn't the threat she is against other beasts. I also have a ton of hps between the speeder and Ferus. Heck, I'd probably encourage you to make a hole, then levitate and assault, even with cunning. You need 7 mice to make a complete wall, assuming Ferus plays the 8th spot. You can get to 6 if you use Anakin as well. That means I still have 4 more to keep the CE going (keeping Leia safe from Ganner/Mara/Han, as well as to fill in the gaps as mice die.

Further - what if you want double override. For me, I get an R7 and 6 mice. You get an R7, 3 mice and an ug. What about triple? For me, 2 R7s and 3 mice. You get 2 R7s and 1 mouse or one ug.

LoboStele wrote:
Obviously, Yobuck squads you wouldn't use Mouse Droids for your reinforcements, as they're just easy fodder for Yoda to kill, but then you're only looking at about 14-15 activations (depending on your reinforcements, bodyguard, override, etc.). Yobuck will be ahead of you on activations by the 2nd round, and then you'll rarely (if ever) get to use Han's Opportunist at that point.
Dodonna does nothing in this match up anyway. I thought I showed you this in Racine :) The Landspeeder is a good matchup against Yoda actually, as it will take Yoda and Dash a long time to each through my hps. Odds are I bring two Twilick Dancers as reinforcements, to BG Juno and prevent swaps and momentum as much as possible, then chase down the three attackers as best I can.

LoboStele wrote:
What about a Pawned Lancer build? Not unusual for those to have 20+ activations, or something like Tim's squad from Chicago with San and the MTB. Gha and Mouse Droids don't help at all with that. Granted, that particular matchup, Dodonna might not help much either (i forget how many activations Tim had), but it would at least be closer, especially once the MTB starts offing pieces.
Juno. How does Dodonna help you here anyway? Tim outactivated any Dodonna squad as it was - and he went first turn at you regardless. Didn't matter about the MTB and evening out, he either won it early (round 1-2) or lost. As for other Lancer builds, Kel Dor would be the reinforcement. They have to run the Lancer first (and pawn second). Further, Juno helps protect you from the first set of strafes, and after that, the LS should easily be in range of taking it out. The speeder has 140hps and Ferus has block. So odds are even a pawned lancer will have to make several successful strafes to get it.

I just think you need to step off the crutch and see that this build works well enough without Dodonna, that you can take advantage of greater options by leaving him out. I can get a T1 in there, can you? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:15 pm 
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thereisnotry wrote:
So, given those reasons, I guess I'm curious how the LS > SS in this build. Or is it just personal preference?


140hps, instead of 90. That's important if facing Republic. Deflect for when you get based, and alter when being hit by scrubs, Dash/Rex, probably evens out with DR in terms of usefulness in most cases though honestly. Large base vs huge - but equal to not having flight vs flight probably. Jedi Mind Trick - situational, but with renewal, a real threat if you lose init. People always forget it too, which is why I like it.

In a mirror of sorts, the LS tends to be better. In some matchups, I think Snow could be better, but in others the LS is better. So in the end, I'd say personal preference as you can easily play either one to success at Gencon. If I were choosing right now though, I would play the LS in the current meta, rather than the SS. If for nothing else than to deny every Rebel player (I think 90% of all regional squads of any note) the ability to have ERCs with Ion Gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:46 pm 
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Okay, those are some good reasons. :)
billiv15 wrote:
If for nothing else than to deny every Rebel player (I think 90% of all regional squads of any note) the ability to have ERCs with Ion Gun.

This one especially.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:51 pm 
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I like the Landspeeder's various bells and whistles, and its ability to combine fire with folks like Rieekan, Gha Nacht, and Juno. I chose it back in 2007 because the 140 hp made it more forgiving of the type of placement errors I usually make. (I also have a hard time planning ahead well enough to have a good landing spot for a Huge base mini). Being immune to Ion Gun is big too.

"My usual practice and prep?" LOL. I typically playtest / practice with a squad during the Thursday and Friday events, decide that it stinks, and then make up something completely different the morning of the tournament...

Now I've just got to figure out if I can actually make it to Gen Con this year...


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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:07 pm 
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billiv15 wrote:
Ok point by point :)
LoboStele wrote:
I certainly agree with the use of 10 mice for screening and such. But with my build, I can still get up to 8 mice total (2 in the build to start with). I fail to see how that is THAT much of a difference.
With one ug in the build. I have 2 already. Now, let's assume you go with at least one ug as a reinforcement (playing the game with one is not competitive). That means at most you get 7 mice. Not bad, and sure, you outactivate. What are you collecting gambit with? Dodonna? My gambit collector is superior, as he is virtually worthless to the squad once the game begins. That's an advantage in certain situations (which is what competitive play is all about as you know).

LoboStele wrote:
Like, if you don't run Dodonna, how do you deal with a Lord Vader swap squad with a ton of activations, or worse, Ozzel? Granted, it's not the best variant of a swap squad, but it would give you trouble for sure. Your mice can't do anything to block LV with Leap, and you have no way to protect yourself against Master Tactician either, so Vader would almost be guaranteed a kill.
Not concerned in the least, not going to see a competitive version with Ozzel, so not going to worry about playing it. Squad would have to face it twice to even make it matter at all to me.

LoboStele wrote:
Or what about NR with Ganner? They don't care about a Mouse Droid screen either, as they outactivate you and then Ganner just Levitates Mara/Kyle right past it.
That's why there are 10. exactly how are you basing me? You can't base if I'm fully surrounded. You can base Ferus if you want to perhaps, but that's ok with me. In fact I encourage it :) And please don't mention grenades as an option. If you waste kyle and ganner throwing a grenade at me, I'm perfectly happy with that as well. Nope, you will have to attack the wall, before you can levitate. And if you do not, kill something, then levitate in one phase, the hole won't be there next phase. Which means no cunning attack for Mara on the Speeder. Not to mention I still have LS deflect, which means Mara isn't the threat she is against other beasts. I also have a ton of hps between the speeder and Ferus. Heck, I'd probably encourage you to make a hole, then levitate and assault, even with cunning. You need 7 mice to make a complete wall, assuming Ferus plays the 8th spot. You can get to 6 if you use Anakin as well. That means I still have 4 more to keep the CE going (keeping Leia safe from Ganner/Mara/Han, as well as to fill in the gaps as mice die.

Further - what if you want double override. For me, I get an R7 and 6 mice. You get an R7, 3 mice and an ug. What about triple? For me, 2 R7s and 3 mice. You get 2 R7s and 1 mouse or one ug.

LoboStele wrote:
Obviously, Yobuck squads you wouldn't use Mouse Droids for your reinforcements, as they're just easy fodder for Yoda to kill, but then you're only looking at about 14-15 activations (depending on your reinforcements, bodyguard, override, etc.). Yobuck will be ahead of you on activations by the 2nd round, and then you'll rarely (if ever) get to use Han's Opportunist at that point.
Dodonna does nothing in this match up anyway. I thought I showed you this in Racine :) The Landspeeder is a good matchup against Yoda actually, as it will take Yoda and Dash a long time to each through my hps. Odds are I bring two Twilick Dancers as reinforcements, to BG Juno and prevent swaps and momentum as much as possible, then chase down the three attackers as best I can.

LoboStele wrote:
What about a Pawned Lancer build? Not unusual for those to have 20+ activations, or something like Tim's squad from Chicago with San and the MTB. Gha and Mouse Droids don't help at all with that. Granted, that particular matchup, Dodonna might not help much either (i forget how many activations Tim had), but it would at least be closer, especially once the MTB starts offing pieces.
Juno. How does Dodonna help you here anyway? Tim outactivated any Dodonna squad as it was - and he went first turn at you regardless. Didn't matter about the MTB and evening out, he either won it early (round 1-2) or lost. As for other Lancer builds, Kel Dor would be the reinforcement. They have to run the Lancer first (and pawn second). Further, Juno helps protect you from the first set of strafes, and after that, the LS should easily be in range of taking it out. The speeder has 140hps and Ferus has block. So odds are even a pawned lancer will have to make several successful strafes to get it.

I just think you need to step off the crutch and see that this build works well enough without Dodonna, that you can take advantage of greater options by leaving him out. I can get a T1 in there, can you? :)


LOL, I'm not trying to stick to the crutch. Like I said before, seems like personal preference. The only convincing reason I see there is the idea of surrounding the LS and forcing opponents to eat through the Mice first, which I could still do for at least 1 round. And to me, the door control issue isn't really a big deal. Careful protection of the Ugos means that 2-3 total is more than enough, leaving me with at least 6 Mice. Add in Anakin and Ferus, and there's your 8 pieces for a wall around the Landspeeder. And using ALL of the mice to guard the Speeder wouldn't bother me in terms of CE boosting. Leia can stick close to Han in the backfield. You just might lose the benefit of Ani's CE on Leia. Not terribly huge, IMO.

All good ideas though, and sure, Gha can get easy gambit too, but most squads will put something in gambit as well (worth more points than Gha, thus a tie-breaker), and just work on picking off your mice as necessary, I think. You'll be forced to expose the mice and possibly let them get picked off, because if you don't, then you'll be leaving yourself open for the opponent to sweep in and go after your big pieces. It's not like it's tough to put other stuff in gambit instead. Plus, in my experience, gambit makes very little differences in most of my games lately. Heck, in a NR matchup, could probably even put the LS in gambit somewhat as bait. :P

As for the NR matchup, that'd be stupid to go after the LS anyways. You go after Ferus, Han, or Leia first, because you can kill them in 1 round w/ Mara, for the most part. Even with 10 mice, you won't be able to protect all 3 of those pieces. Whatever is unprotected is what the opponent will go after. And with most squads running Dodonna, they'll have easy choices because you'll be all activated and not able to retaliate.

Anyways....

I definitely agree with the LS over the SS though. The key there, I think, is that the LS can kill the SS in 2 activations (40 damage from itself, 50 from Leia's CE), whereas the SS can't even come close in the reverse, having to deal with the extra HP AND Deflect. The loss of Flight hurts a bit, but not enough, IMO. I've always liked the Landspeeder anyways, and I had a blast playing my version of the squad a few weeks ago. After Gray ran the SS so well in Owensboro, I had seriously considered bringing my LS build to Racine. Probably should have. Might've done better than I did with NR. :P Looking back at things, I guess the only reason I chose the SS over the LS for last year's GenCon was probably just the mess of Rough Terrain to deal with on the Taris map, I guess. Not really sure.

EDIT: Ooooh, forgot about the fact that the LS doesn't get hurt by the ERC's Ion Gun. That's a definite bonus, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:31 pm 
Master of the Order
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billiv15 wrote:
LoboStele wrote:
Obviously, Yobuck squads you wouldn't use Mouse Droids for your reinforcements, as they're just easy fodder for Yoda to kill, but then you're only looking at about 14-15 activations (depending on your reinforcements, bodyguard, override, etc.). Yobuck will be ahead of you on activations by the 2nd round, and then you'll rarely (if ever) get to use Han's Opportunist at that point.
Dodonna does nothing in this match up anyway. I thought I showed you this in Racine :) The Landspeeder is a good matchup against Yoda actually, as it will take Yoda and Dash a long time to each through my hps. Odds are I bring two Twilick Dancers as reinforcements, to BG Juno and prevent swaps and momentum as much as possible, then chase down the three attackers as best I can.


Darn it, knew there was something I forgot to mention. This is the problem I see with not having Dodonna. In the Yobuck matchup, either LS build could bring the 2 Twi'lek Dancers for Reinforcements, which I think is the right option. The problem is, that you'll only have 13 activations total, whereas if the opponent is running the Yobuck squad you had in Racine, then that squad has as many as 15 activations. So you're easily out-activated, and then especially so once Yoda runs through and kills your Ugos, or Bodyguards, etc. So, Han rarely gets to use Opportunist, and the Republic player gets to use Dash's Opportunist nearly every round. Dash can barely even hit the LS if he's not getting Opportunist/Momentum, which I think would be way more useful. The Yobuck squad would be able to do a simple pass through the squad and wipe out some fodder, and then the next round, would be able to pounce on you with little worry about retaliation, which I found, was the key thing in being able to handle Yobuck. Being able to stay alive through the Gallop and retaliate afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Landspeeder + Commandos
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:39 pm 
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Well I think Gha over dod is 50/50. I can see what Bill is saying and what Aaron is saying. A lot of the time when I run the Lanspeeder its in Gambit. I am still liking Han SC and the LS its only like 13 acts but it looks like a lot of fun over smugger.

Bill playing one uggie can be done Jason did it in Michigan and I did it in Racine. But I really dont think its a good idea to play one though. :D I had too much trouble using Rodian/grans as door openers and when they died Jar Jar became a door opener. So yeah 2 uggies min is the way to go.


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