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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 4:57 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
You would actually even be lucky to take off 20 with a strafe. Remember that Djem-so Mastery lets him do 50 to the lancer (needing 2s) because of twin so the lancer doesn't even get its twin when strafing Luke if he hits 1 of 3 chances at Djem-so.


Wow you're right. I figure in that match-up you have to kill everything BUT Luke, then work on him. At that point - there is no reason NOT to try and lance him - even if it's futile. Maybe have Sidious zap him a couple of times, and make him use up FPs on Force Defense, and then strafe. It's totally an uphill battle, and really you only have a shot with locking doors. At least I would have a strategy. Vs other squads like Eric's Nute squad I have no idea what I would do.


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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:27 am 
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You really need a combo of IG-86s and Lancers in order to handle Luke. But Sidious doing Lightning and Grievous using Blaster +20 would help as well. If you can wear down some of his FPs early on, then you might have a chance. The main problem is, Luke typically gets two chances at Djem So per turn just because the Lancer has Twin. So, odds are, the Lancer will die after the very first time it attacks Luke, and you'll have only done 20-40 damage on him, depending on when he makes the Djem So save, and whether he makes/fails the LS Defense roll. Could possibly do no damage to Luke if his rolling is good.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:41 am 
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LoboStele wrote:
You really need a combo of IG-86s and Lancers in order to handle Luke. But Sidious doing Lightning and Grievous using Blaster +20 would help as well. If you can wear down some of his FPs early on, then you might have a chance. The main problem is, Luke typically gets two chances at Djem So per turn just because the Lancer has Twin. So, odds are, the Lancer will die after the very first time it attacks Luke, and you'll have only done 20-40 damage on him, depending on when he makes the Djem So save, and whether he makes/fails the LS Defense roll. Could possibly do no damage to Luke if his rolling is good.



You're right. But in that situation where you do kill the rest of his squad, what are you going to do - not attack? Unless that gives more points to your opponent than you have by losing a lancer, then I say suicide strafe it is.

I basically did a suicide strafe at the end of the match vs Lou at Regionals vs his 2 JWMs. But it didn't matter since it killed them, and those were his last 2 characters.


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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:50 am 
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Oh absolutely. You probably still have to try for the kill on Luke, unless you played really slow and have managed to get ahead. Killing his support would only be 85 points, and if he managed to take out a Lancer or two, collect some gambit, or take down an IG-86 or two along the way, the score could still be close.

So suicide runs would almost be a necessity. Which is part of why I was trying to point out that I thought a good, consistently-winning, Lancer build needs some IG-86 back-up to go along with it. Putting all your eggs in the Lancer basket is dangerous, but having even just 1 IG-86 could be a real annoyance to Luke, especially since you only need 6's to hit him most of the time, even if he has cover. Between 1 IG-86 and Grievous' Blaster, if you can get Luke to burn 2-3 Force Points per round defending against that, then by the time the Lancer's are done working through the rest of the squad, Luke should be sufficiently low on FPs that it would be worth sacrificing the Lancers.

Luke's only chance would be to set up his squad in such a way that it was impossible for the Lancer to get to his other pieces without Strafing over Luke in some way. On some maps that might be possible, but still tough to pull off, and I think a smart Lancer player will just play things safe until they have a chance where they can do the most damage.

This would be one situation where you'd really want to rush Luke to some degree though. The fewer Force Points he has, the easier it will be to take him down. I guess that's sort of true with any build against him though.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:06 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
You would actually even be lucky to take off 20 with a strafe. Remember that Djem-so Mastery lets him do 50 to the lancer (needing 2s) because of twin so the lancer doesn't even get its twin when strafing Luke if he hits 1 of 3 chances at Djem-so.

And correct me if im wrong, but you roll the djem so save first before a block/defense. As long as the Djem-so save is made within the first two rolls, you are going to lose your lancer and probably do no damage to skywalker in return.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 10:11 am 
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Sithdragon13 wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
You would actually even be lucky to take off 20 with a strafe. Remember that Djem-so Mastery lets him do 50 to the lancer (needing 2s) because of twin so the lancer doesn't even get its twin when strafing Luke if he hits 1 of 3 chances at Djem-so.

And correct me if im wrong, but you roll the djem so save first before a block/defense. As long as the Djem-so save is made within the first two rolls, you are going to lose your lancer and probably do no damage to skywalker in return.


Nope, you only have to choose to use reposte or not before the djem so save. Whether you block or make the save first does not matter. Personally, I would have required the block choice before the djem so save as well, but that isn't what they did.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:28 pm 
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TimmerB123 wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
You would actually even be lucky to take off 20 with a strafe. Remember that Djem-so Mastery lets him do 50 to the lancer (needing 2s) because of twin so the lancer doesn't even get its twin when strafing Luke if he hits 1 of 3 chances at Djem-so.


Wow you're right. I figure in that match-up you have to kill everything BUT Luke, then work on him. At that point - there is no reason NOT to try and lance him - even if it's futile. Maybe have Sidious zap him a couple of times, and make him use up FPs on Force Defense, and then strafe. It's totally an uphill battle, and really you only have a shot with locking doors. At least I would have a strategy. Vs other squads like Eric's Nute squad I have no idea what I would do.


With Erics squad since he didn't have a lancer it is idea to get past the front waves he puts out, levitating back to the IGs, GMA or mobile accurate to hit them and hide is the best bets. Once the IGs are down its pretty much mopping up but getting to the IGs is the tough part. Restricted to one activation at a time is not something you want either unless you have a way to maintain concealment. In our game I was knocking stuff off but nothing was worth anything since most of it was reinforcements that i killed but I did get one of the 4 IGs he had out.

Ozzel in my squad was kinda killing me in this match up, not to mentioned I should have picked his map so his IGs didn't have across the board shots.

If I had the NR Grand master Luke squad I think i would have had a pretty good shot of making a game against his squad. Especially if I could get Luke levitated next to one or even 2 of the IGs. After that Luke has the speed that he could just hunt them down or move on back to the commander area.

I think with the NR Luke squad the only major concern I would have had is vong and Black and Blue scourge. There may be more concerns but with the restricted maps making it easier for melee to move forward the major shooter squads would have Luke on them and in the mix by round 3 at the latest.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:32 pm 
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The Luke player ignores the Lancer altogether and rushes for any IG-86 droids and then any other support. If Luke gets lucky he can move drop 40 on the IG-86 and then win init and kill the IG-86 and base something else (Grievous/Sid/or a second IG-86 if they have it) and as long as Luke makes even a minimal amount of LD saves the Lancer player cannot win. Luke renews faster than Sid does for Force Defense so for the Lancer player it really is an uphill battle against Luke. Additionally Luke does come with support so unless they are hiding in the corner they will be doing something to distract the lancer (even if the main fight is Luke against everything but the lancer)

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:37 pm 
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Luke also makes it a headache for Yobuck to.

If yobuck comes up and gallops luke he will take not only the Djem so 50 dam more then likely but also the AOO another 40 so 90 dam more then likely,and if yobuck makes it a gallop stop attack then it gets 2 djem so s against it for 100 dam more then likely. Lost init after that would be a kill either way and luke can then still move.

The other but harder possibility is levitate next to yobuck and six attacks for 120 possible dam. Yobuck is then stuck either attacks and probable death by djem so or moves and probable deth by aoo.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Gurneywars wrote:
Luke also makes it a headache for Yobuck to.

If yobuck comes up and gallops luke he will take not only the Djem so 50 dam more then likely but also the AOO another 40 so 90 dam more then likely,and if yobuck makes it a gallop stop attack then it gets 2 djem so s against it for 100 dam more then likely. Lost init after that would be a kill either way and luke can then still move.

The other but harder possibility is levitate next to yobuck and six attacks for 120 possible dam. Yobuck is then stuck either attacks and probable death by djem so or moves and probable deth by aoo.


Yobuck would have Swap to hopefully get out of any sticky situations like being based by Luke at the end of a round. And a smart Yobuck player ought to do the same thing as a smart Lancer player, and do everything possible to avoid Luke in the initial fight. If Yobuck can get past Luke and hit some of the support, then you just depend on Rex/Dash to really wail on Luke and wear him down. Luke either has to retreat to chase down Yobuck in his back-field, or make a charge for the Republic's other pieces/Commander core, in which case he then has to deal with Dash/Rex shooting him up along the way, or possibly Panaka swapping Dash into Luke's backfield to finish off Dodonna/Ganner/etc.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 1:19 am 
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Well that's kinda just it. With this squad there is no back field.(unless you count 6-10 squares behind) Its all or nothing. Everything will be moving across the map as a group(not adjacent but could also be scattered) with skywalker in the front except if skywalker needs to get somewhere quick. Then ganner takes the lead and levitates the master in. I could also use talon as a shield at least one round. Actually by end of round 2 luke should be able to get to the backfield and still attack. I should also have 2 dead uggs of mine gone from blowing up key doors then getting shot.

I feel that if yobuck ignores Luke or is swapped away then getting dash or rex instead would be a good trade. Because if they are the first beat to go down yobuck is in trouble. I would sacrifice the rest of my squad at that point to get his backfield. Heck i would let ganner take on yoda while Luke did everything else.

The thing with the Reps they would need to have 14 acts to keep ahead of the Luke squad here untile round 3 then its 10 acts to keep Luke from basing.(unless i get the elusive 11 init roll) If Luke bases they need to win init and for the reps that can be very possible with all the anticipation out there. If they don't then that based piece is going to die if they do win init and swap a gran or some other minor piece then its ignore and try to base again. If its any other piece it is likely dead with a levitate out.

I don't know its hard to say how any game will go(without playing it), just have likely outcomes based on the stats.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 10:29 am 
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Gurneywars - it appears that none of your scenarios factor in override. Being out-activated and facing an opponent with double (or triple or quadruple) override is a whole different mess of problems. If you don't blow key doors you are in deep trouble, and Yodabuck and the Lancer have ways of preventing you from blowing doors. Not saying it can't be done - I'm just saying Luke's team better focus on blowing doors or that will be what beats it.


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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 4:14 pm 
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Your completely right tim and actually I said kinda that in post 1 at the end of it. :) uggs would have to blow as many doors as they can before they die.

also pointed out my uggs would be dead more then likely by round 2 in 1st paragraph 2 post up. :) granted i said shot but if I have to go through doors so does my opponent. Your also right about the opponents override being triple or quadruple that could be a problem.

I'm also just speculating on the restricted map list were at least on first round I have a chance to move into place for blowing the doors. granted this is still dependent on which map.

Thats the main trick getting rid of the key doors or keeping lobot alive long enough to open a door that will allow luke to cause trouble.

Even though its my sqaud post and I really like it, I'm not sold on this squad but I think it would be a lot of fun to run for the grueling 5 rounds + tournaments and I think it would have a good chance against various squads.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 12:11 am 
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I actually am curious how Jarael would work as the 3rd wheel. With GMLS, Ganner, Jarael, and Dodonna you have lots of versatility with Jarael's Evade/Parry/Force Renewal she can be a decent shield for Luke and Ganner while potentially activating some minis.

That leaves 24 points, so an R7, Mouse or 2 for shields, and 3-4 ugos.

I am big Jarael fan in the competitive world since she brings a lot of versatility.

No Kyp means alot less dqmage though. I honestly cant see Talon being much use, no defenses and extremely low dqmage output isnt worth it to me.


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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:16 am 
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The big reason for Talon is the disruptive. It helps against most squads (lancer, swap, even cannon squads, etc) although the prospect of jareal is an interesting one to go with GMLS.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:03 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
The big reason for Talon is the disruptive. It helps against most squads (lancer, swap, even cannon squads, etc) although the prospect of jareal is an interesting one to go with GMLS.


Talon wont last 5 minutes on the current meta.

Disruptive is a good idea, but only 60 HP, bad stats, and no defensive powers make him a very easy target. YoBuck would run rings around hin and the second he shows his face a then towed Rex or cad will eliminate him with ease.

If it was Madine I would agree, his stealth and much lower cost would be excellent, but Talon isnt good enough IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:56 pm 
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But then what do you replace him with? With the threat of Yobuck, doing a bunch of small activations wont do you much good. Plus there are plenty of times where the recon/disruptive will do worlds of good. I really like the idea of adding Jarael. I hadnt thought about that.
This is the squad i came up with, but might rework hair for a jarael variant.

115 Grand Master Luke Skywalker
29 Ganner Rhysode
24 Talon Karrde
8 R7 Astromech Droid
15 Caamasi Noble x3
9 Ugnaught Demolitionist x3

(200pts. 10 activations)

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:02 pm 
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Well like I said I feel I would need talon for the first 2 rounds mainly for the disruptive. Although I like Jareal idea. She is my first or second thoughts for reserves if I manage to roll that magical 11 number.

Lobot's reserves 30 jareal
Karrde's reserves 20 maybe 3 mouese droid and 3 uggies
or maybe a kel dor BH and a couple uggs

Reserves in first 2 rounds would make it interesting but without Have to play with the 7 acts.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:34 pm 
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While reserves can change from game to game, i dont think going for more activations will ever do you any good in this squad, especially vs yobuck. Id lean towards more solid heavy hitters that will be harder to take down (Lando DS or a vigo for the attack power or even an ngok with a +9 and 90 HP). That is why i did caamasi. they can be moving screens, bottle necks, gambit getters, but most important, it would be hard for Yobuck to kill them all in one attack.

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 Post subject: Re: tossing the skywalker
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:51 am 
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More acts from reserves will help against other rebel squads, imp with ozzel squads, and other NR

My first thought s for reserves was as many kel dor BH as I could fit along with an r7 or uggies

But I also was thinking opportunist dash but then realized that he would not really make a good choice unless I got reserves several times since cunning was what is needed.

So another thought came up was jabba crime lord and a mouse droid or 2 with kel dor BHs.

Felucians might be fun too as reserves(if they can make their saves). They would get the force renewal and have parry which could be funny watching the lancer hit but do no damage or even yobuck hitting but no damage.

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