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 Post subject: Return of the King
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:32 am 
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Played this today, went 3-0 with it:

55 General Obi-Wan Kenobi
35 Zuckuss, Bounty Hunter
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Scoundrel
27 Ferus Olin
23 Captain Panaka
09 Rodian Brute x3
09 R2, Astromech Droid
06 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
05 Camaasi Noble x1
03 Mouse Droid x1

I wasn't all that impressed with Ferus, but that was probably less about him and more about the way the games played during the tournament. Most of the time he was dead before he was really able to participate in the battle.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:13 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Played this today, went 3-0 with it:

55 General Obi-Wan Kenobi
35 Zuckuss, Bounty Hunter
28 Dash Rendar, Renegade Scoundrel
27 Ferus Olin
23 Captain Panaka
09 Rodian Brute x3
09 R2, Astromech Droid
06 Ugnaught Demolitionist x2
05 Camaasi Noble x1
03 Mouse Droid x1

I wasn't all that impressed with Ferus, but that was probably less about him and more about the way the games played during the tournament. Most of the time he was dead before he was really able to participate in the battle.


Well if he was primarily functioning as a bodyguard, I can understand why he wouldn't have seen much battle. What squads did you face?

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 7:49 am 
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Sith_Asassyn wrote:
Well if he was primarily functioning as a bodyguard, I can understand why he wouldn't have seen much battle. What squads did you face?


Actually he did very little Bodyguarding. He just dropped too fast to actually participate in combat. Well, in the first couple of games, anyway, which were both vs. New Republic Kyle/Wedge/Dodonna squads. He was slightly more useful vs. the Empire.

If I had it to do over, I would replace Ferus and one of the Rodians with a Jedi Weapon Master and Gran Raider.

You can read the full report here:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=8548

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:58 am 
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Personally, I would drop Panaka. I don't think swap is all that useful with Ferus, and I would go one way or the other. Obviously if you stick with Panaka, drop Ferus. But if you drop Panaka, then you can consider either, dropping Dash for a Force using shooter (like Anakin on Stap) or insert the Dark Woman to grant Light Tutor to Dash. Being able to BG all of your damage dealers, makes Ferus a much better fig. From what you have, all he's doing is BGing for GOWK, so I can see why he was disappointing. Even with the changes to SSM, GOWK only needs a BG in certain situations anyways. A Human BG coming in with Lobot can cover that ground well enough in your build.

But if you go away from swapping, towing the BG to keep up with GOWK, and double attacking with precision every round makes Ferus quite nasty.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:14 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Personally, I would drop Panaka. I don't think swap is all that useful with Ferus, and I would go one way or the other. Obviously if you stick with Panaka, drop Ferus. But if you drop Panaka, then you can consider either, dropping Dash for a Force using shooter (like Anakin on Stap) or insert the Dark Woman to grant Light Tutor to Dash. Being able to BG all of your damage dealers, makes Ferus a much better fig. From what you have, all he's doing is BGing for GOWK, so I can see why he was disappointing. Even with the changes to SSM, GOWK only needs a BG in certain situations anyways. A Human BG coming in with Lobot can cover that ground well enough in your build.

But if you go away from swapping, towing the BG to keep up with GOWK, and double attacking with precision every round makes Ferus quite nasty.


With Zuckuss out there now, I can't imagine playing a competitive build without a swapping option ever again. Panaka is there so that if Zuckuss traps GOWK, he can still be moved.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:23 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Personally, I would drop Panaka. I don't think swap is all that useful with Ferus, and I would go one way or the other. Obviously if you stick with Panaka, drop Ferus. But if you drop Panaka, then you can consider either, dropping Dash for a Force using shooter (like Anakin on Stap) or insert the Dark Woman to grant Light Tutor to Dash. Being able to BG all of your damage dealers, makes Ferus a much better fig. From what you have, all he's doing is BGing for GOWK, so I can see why he was disappointing. Even with the changes to SSM, GOWK only needs a BG in certain situations anyways. A Human BG coming in with Lobot can cover that ground well enough in your build.

But if you go away from swapping, towing the BG to keep up with GOWK, and double attacking with precision every round makes Ferus quite nasty.


With Zuckuss out there now, I can't imagine playing a competitive build without a swapping option ever again. Panaka is there so that if Zuckuss traps GOWK, he can still be moved.


Well you have your own Zuckuss. So if you think through the options your opponent will have, either attacking GOWK with his Zuck (assuming he/she won init) and allowing their own big piece to be stuck (odds are a higher damage dealer than GOWK), then so be it. Alternatively, if they go the route of not using Zuck immediately, your GOWK is fine. But like I said, if you stick with Panaka, which is a fine figure, then I can see why Ferus wasn't as useful as you thought. There is little need for a 27pt BG when you are swapping. Go with the more offensive options of a JWM, Dark Woman, Anakin on Stap, etc instead.

Zuck on Zuck games makes for choices with init that have really never been brought up before. You are forced to do things that you never were before. You quite often have to choose to use your big beat much earlier in a round than you would otherwise like to do (which in term makes activation control much less effective), if Zuckuss has a line on you. And with Zuck on Zuck, once the battle starts, you always have to choose between sticking their piece, and protecting (getting to move) your own early in the round. Swapping is a fine way around the issue to a degree, but it's not the only option. Generally, I don't mind if GOWK gets stuck, as he isn't my offensive piece in those builds, and by the time Zuck can attack him, I'm already based on something anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:36 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
billiv15 wrote:
Personally, I would drop Panaka. I don't think swap is all that useful with Ferus, and I would go one way or the other. Obviously if you stick with Panaka, drop Ferus. But if you drop Panaka, then you can consider either, dropping Dash for a Force using shooter (like Anakin on Stap) or insert the Dark Woman to grant Light Tutor to Dash. Being able to BG all of your damage dealers, makes Ferus a much better fig. From what you have, all he's doing is BGing for GOWK, so I can see why he was disappointing. Even with the changes to SSM, GOWK only needs a BG in certain situations anyways. A Human BG coming in with Lobot can cover that ground well enough in your build.

But if you go away from swapping, towing the BG to keep up with GOWK, and double attacking with precision every round makes Ferus quite nasty.


With Zuckuss out there now, I can't imagine playing a competitive build without a swapping option ever again. Panaka is there so that if Zuckuss traps GOWK, he can still be moved.


Well you have your own Zuckuss. So if you think through the options your opponent will have, either attacking GOWK with his Zuck (assuming he/she won init) and allowing their own big piece to be stuck (odds are a higher damage dealer than GOWK), then so be it. Alternatively, if they go the route of not using Zuck immediately, your GOWK is fine. But like I said, if you stick with Panaka, which is a fine figure, then I can see why Ferus wasn't as useful as you thought. There is little need for a 27pt BG when you are swapping. Go with the more offensive options of a JWM, Dark Woman, Anakin on Stap, etc instead.

Zuck on Zuck games makes for choices with init that have really never been brought up before. You are forced to do things that you never were before. You quite often have to choose to use your big beat much earlier in a round than you would otherwise like to do (which in term makes activation control much less effective), if Zuckuss has a line on you. And with Zuck on Zuck, once the battle starts, you always have to choose between sticking their piece, and protecting (getting to move) your own early in the round. Swapping is a fine way around the issue to a degree, but it's not the only option. Generally, I don't mind if GOWK gets stuck, as he isn't my offensive piece in those builds, and by the time Zuck can attack him, I'm already based on something anyways.


I see what you're saying, and agree with most of it. When I was builiding the squad I had this vision of seeing something like:
Thrawn, Zuckuss, Ozzel, Boba BH, Jarael, filler. So Zuckuss auto-wins init and then locks a piece down so that Boba and Jarael cand pummel it. Trying to play to what I was expecting to see, the elements I didn't think I could beat on sound tactics. As it turned out, no one had that, but you never know... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:28 pm 
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I'm guessing that in all your games Ferus was picked as the primary target for your opponents attacks, or you used him earlier in the round than you should have, or possibly bad placement. If thats the case then I can see why he fell rather quickly, hes a nice support piece, but I feel he needs to stay hidden most of the game to truly make him useful. I agree with Bill on maximizing your force users to truly reap the benefits of jedi bodyguard. I agree on using the Dark Woman here to give Light Tutor on Dash. Also you aren't really doing much swapping as you dont have Mas to maximizie the range.. So personally I would drop Panaka, Brutes, and Caamasi... After swapping Panaka out for the Dark Woman, use the 16pts on Jax Pavan. Who is a good fodder killer in his own right. Also they will help fix the low damage out put by adding extra support to take out the fodder, and they also fill your ranks with more jedi, making Ferus much more useable in your squad.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:20 pm 
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Sith_Asassyn wrote:
I'm guessing that in all your games Ferus was picked as the primary target for your opponents attacks, or you used him earlier in the round than you should have, or possibly bad placement.


You guessed wrong. You should read the tournament report I linked instead of guessing. In game 2, he was the primary target and he dropped in a single phase. In the other games, he did okay but I think the Jedi Weapon Master would have been a better fit.

Quote:
...but I feel he needs to stay hidden most of the game to truly make him useful.

Actually this is how I played him, and in game 2 he was still the key target. I suppose it could be said he took the pressure of GOWK for one round as a result, but not even being able to do so much as Riposte to get some damage in, well I've already covered this.

Quote:
I agree with Bill on maximizing your force users to truly reap the benefits of jedi bodyguard.


I actually only want him bodyguarding in the event I am facing something like Boba BH or against melee enemies with the capability to kill GOWK via damage. That said, I think I am fine with Panaka playing that role.

Quote:
I agree on using the Dark Woman here to give Light Tutor on Dash.


So he can reroll a single Evade? Seriously? So he can be susceptible to Jedi Hunter? Seriously? No thank you. In addition, I think you should take a hard look at the squad in terms of points. It's very tight. GOWK + Zuckuss + Dash = 126 pts. R2 is a must, that brings it to 135. If you are planning for the competitve meta correctly, or at least at my venue - I realize all metas are different - you better have a bodyguard. Maybe not every week, maybe not even every month at this point, but Boba BH is still in the carry case for quite a few people, especially where I play.

Quote:
Also you aren't really doing much swapping as you dont have Mas to maximizie the range.


No offense, but this part of your post made me chuckle. It's a smug statement, even if you didn't mean it to be, and while it appears to be a disadvantage, it's actually something that worked in my favor quite a few times. Mas is a crutch. It's about knowing effective placement of the Mouse Droid. Basically I had Panaka run with 1/2 the squad and the Mouse Droid with the other. There was never a single round where I didn't have swap targets, nor a single round where a piece was out of positon to be swapped. Mas is a crutch in this squad because Panaka is the only piece with range 6 CE. And I'm sorry you may disagree, but it is a mistake to drop Panaka. It may not have been crucial yesterday, but that's only because the power level of what Zuckuss can do hasn't been realized yet. The worst thing that could happen to this squad is to have Dash sitting out of position and unable to be moved into a position where he can still shoot something during all of the crucial combat rounds

Quote:
So personally I would drop Panaka, Brutes, and Caamasi... After swapping Panaka out for the Dark Woman, use the 16pts on Jax Pavan. Who is a good fodder killer in his own right. Also they will help fix the low damage out put by adding extra support to take out the fodder, and they also fill your ranks with more jedi, making Ferus much more useable in your squad.



Nor would I use Jax Pavan, either. He's already in EBoD. It's worth noting that by dumping the fooder, you've also removed:
A. the cheap gambit option.
B. the counter to tempo control.
C. the ability to protect key pieces.

I don't know what kind of venue you play at, but there are 5 things I have to think about all the time when I build my squad:
1. Dodonna/Ozzel/San Hill (tempo control)
2. Boba Fett Bounty Hunter
3. Rebels, particularly Luke's Snowspeeder
4. Thrawn
5. Disruptive

Those things may not all appear all the time, but they are the most likely to do so, from my experience. As demonstrated yesterday.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:41 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Sith_Asassyn wrote:
I'm guessing that in all your games Ferus was picked as the primary target for your opponents attacks, or you used him earlier in the round than you should have, or possibly bad placement.


You guessed wrong. You should read the tournament report I linked instead of guessing. In game 2, he was the primary target and he dropped in a single phase. In the other games, he did okay but I think the Jedi Weapon Master would have been a better fit.

I wasn't aware there was a tourney report up.. Nor did I bother looking.

Quote:
...but I feel he needs to stay hidden most of the game to truly make him useful.

Actually this is how I played him, and in game 2 he was still the key target. I suppose it could be said he took the pressure of GOWK for one round as a result, but not even being able to do so much as Riposte to get some damage in, well I've already covered this.

I would rather have pressure on GOWK.. unless its melee pressure of course.. I'd much rather have a chance to make the save, than to just have no chance to mitigate any of the damage.

Quote:
I agree with Bill on maximizing your force users to truly reap the benefits of jedi bodyguard.


I actually only want him bodyguarding in the event I am facing something like Boba BH or against melee enemies with the capability to kill GOWK via damage. That said, I think I am fine with Panaka playing that role.

So you are dropping Ferus then?

Quote:
I agree on using the Dark Woman here to give Light Tutor on Dash.


So he can reroll a single Evade? Seriously? So he can be susceptible to Jedi Hunter? Seriously? No thank you. In addition, I think you should take a hard look at the squad in terms of points. It's very tight. GOWK + Zuckuss + Dash = 126 pts. R2 is a must, that brings it to 135. If you are planning for the competitve meta correctly, or at least at my venue - I realize all metas are different - you better have a bodyguard. Maybe not every week, maybe not even every month at this point, but Boba BH is still in the carry case for quite a few people, especially where I play.

If Dash is getting beat up then you are not using him correctly.. Greater Mobile Attack is about moving out, doing damage and hiding behind cover... I realize there will be times where you will go for shots to take out a key piece. But, Jedi Hunter shouldn't even be a factor.. Once you let your opponents melee beats get in range of dash hes already dead.

Quote:
Also you aren't really doing much swapping as you dont have Mas to maximizie the range.


No offense, but this part of your post made me chuckle. It's a smug statement, even if you didn't mean it to be, and while it appears to be a disadvantage, it's actually something that worked in my favor quite a few times. Mas is a crutch. It's about knowing effective placement of the Mouse Droid. Basically I had Panaka run with 1/2 the squad and the Mouse Droid with the other. There was never a single round where I didn't have swap targets, nor a single round where a piece was out of positon to be swapped. Mas is a crutch in this squad because Panaka is the only piece with range 6 CE. And I'm sorry you may disagree, but it is a mistake to drop Panaka. It may not have been crucial yesterday, but that's only because the power level of what Zuckuss can do hasn't been realized yet. The worst thing that could happen to this squad is to have Dash sitting out of position and unable to be moved into a position where he can still shoot something during all of the crucial combat rounds

Again I still dont think panaka is a necessity in this squad.. then again what do i know. Obviously not alot since you think all my advice is terrible. But then again I have a completely differrent play style than you.

Quote:
So personally I would drop Panaka, Brutes, and Caamasi... After swapping Panaka out for the Dark Woman, use the 16pts on Jax Pavan. Who is a good fodder killer in his own right. Also they will help fix the low damage out put by adding extra support to take out the fodder, and they also fill your ranks with more jedi, making Ferus much more useable in your squad.



Nor would I use Jax Pavan, either. He's already in EBoD. It's worth noting that by dumping the fooder, you've also removed:
A. the cheap gambit option.
B. the counter to tempo control.
C. the ability to protect key pieces.

I don't know what kind of venue you play at, but there are 5 things I have to think about all the time when I build my squad:
1. Dodonna/Ozzel/San Hill (tempo control)
2. Boba Fett Bounty Hunter
3. Rebels, particularly Luke's Snowspeeder
4. Thrawn
5. Disruptive

Those things may not all appear all the time, but they are the most likely to do so, from my experience. As demonstrated yesterday.


I have no idea what EBoD is.. I Don't really care whats going to show up, I just play a squad that does enough damage to take out whatever I face. I'm not saying that activation control isn't a pain in the ass, but If you are worried about it that much, then you should be running Lancer pawn or Kybuck. If you are worried about running into Boba, BH then you should always run Lobot for the option to bring in a human BG to help. Rebels are 3rd in 200. Granted they are still a pain with their 2 crutch pieces.. Dodonna and Rieekan, but they aren't as strong as the imperials and republic, so they shouldn't even be an issue. Thrawn is a huge problem which you will just have to outplay, or kill their swap fodder as fast as you can. Disruptive is a pain in the butt, but Zuckuss/Jolt can stop Kyle in his tracks, and Juno is never going to show her face unless your not running accurate.. they can be played around as well.

Not saying that I'm a great player, but I do understand how squads work, and how to beat them.. My placement is my biggest fault and I recognize that. maybe you just need to take a step back and think about your games, and see what your biggest mistakes were.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:15 am 
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Quote:
I have no idea what EBoD is.


Eternal Bin of Darkness, or something similiar. The place where you store all those minis you just aren't going to be putting to use anytime soon.

Quote:
I Don't really care whats going to show up, I just play a squad that does enough damage to take out whatever I face.


If you don't care to think about what's going to show up, how exactly do you know you'll have enough firepower to deal with it?


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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:43 am 
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Draconarius wrote:
Quote:
I have no idea what EBoD is.


Eternal Bin of Darkness, or something similiar. The place where you store all those minis you just aren't going to be putting to use anytime soon.

Quote:
I Don't really care whats going to show up, I just play a squad that does enough damage to take out whatever I face.


If you don't care to think about what's going to show up, how exactly do you know you'll have enough firepower to deal with it?


Its just an assumption that ive made.. I usually run powerful pieces that can do 80-100 damage or more.. Dash, LV, Cad Bane, etc.. etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:32 am 
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Sith_Asassyn wrote:
Draconarius wrote:
Quote:
I have no idea what EBoD is.


Eternal Bin of Darkness, or something similiar. The place where you store all those minis you just aren't going to be putting to use anytime soon.

Quote:
I Don't really care whats going to show up, I just play a squad that does enough damage to take out whatever I face.


If you don't care to think about what's going to show up, how exactly do you know you'll have enough firepower to deal with it?


Its just an assumption that ive made.. I usually run powerful pieces that can do 80-100 damage or more.. Dash, LV, Cad Bane, etc.. etc.


I had trouble following your comments from the last post, because the quote tags were missing, but I think I figured it out. Rather than try to debate every point, I will just say that I really place no value in the suggestion to just play different pieces or a different style squad than the one posted based on what I expect other people to run. That is akin to the post-CotF/pre-BH days of "You can't beat teh Bane1111!!1 It is not at all helpful and counter-productive to the goal of the thread, any thread, not just this one. This thread is about GOWK + Dash + a second melee beat + Panaka + filler, my thoughts on the version I created, and seeks advice on improving the build. When I want to discuss a Yobuck or Lancer squad, I'll post it. In any case, taking Panaka out is a mistake, IMO. Criticizing the squad because it doesn't have Mas is short-sighted. Proposing Lobot is just offering the opponent 27 free points, IMO, and requires the sacrifice of far too many swap options, thus negating Panaka's role. I would happily Intuition up to your big-hitter Cad or Lord Vader, shoot to lock it down, and then swap a Rodian Brute into its place. Go ahead and waste your shots with Cad, now Dash can mobile up and blast him, and then mobile back. Also, it might surprise you and others here to learn that I utilized Panaka as a combatant, not a 23-point commander who spent the entire game in the back corner. I think you should play the squad before you remark on how weak it looks. I might remind you that I went 3-0 with it, and I beat 2 of the best players at our venue. I'm sorry you didn't see the link to the tournament report, but it is here in this thread.

Secondly, these pieces you list here can only deal massive damage if they can attack something, and then they have to hit.

I apologize if my responses to you have come across as hostile or defensive, but I have found your suggestions to be not necessarily terrible but rather, well, ignorant or perhaps dismissive of the impact that Dark Times and Galaxy at War have had on the competitive meta. Some of that may be because it hasn't been fully realized, and some may be the result of the meta, particularly the local one (as really that is the only thing I am concerned about), just not catching up yet.

EDIT: By the way, I am rethinking my position on Jax Pavan after looking at his card last night as I was sleeving all the new rares. I admit I may have underestimated him before.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:48 pm 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Sith_Asassyn wrote:
Draconarius wrote:
Quote:
I have no idea what EBoD is.


Eternal Bin of Darkness, or something similiar. The place where you store all those minis you just aren't going to be putting to use anytime soon.

Quote:
I Don't really care whats going to show up, I just play a squad that does enough damage to take out whatever I face.


If you don't care to think about what's going to show up, how exactly do you know you'll have enough firepower to deal with it?


Its just an assumption that ive made.. I usually run powerful pieces that can do 80-100 damage or more.. Dash, LV, Cad Bane, etc.. etc.


I had trouble following your comments from the last post, because the quote tags were missing, but I think I figured it out. Rather than try to debate every point, I will just say that I really place no value in the suggestion to just play different pieces or a different style squad than the one posted based on what I expect other people to run. That is akin to the post-CotF/pre-BH days of "You can't beat teh Bane1111!!1 It is not at all helpful and counter-productive to the goal of the thread, any thread, not just this one. This thread is about GOWK + Dash + a second melee beat + Panaka + filler, my thoughts on the version I created, and seeks advice on improving the build. When I want to discuss a Yobuck or Lancer squad, I'll post it. In any case, taking Panaka out is a mistake, IMO. Criticizing the squad because it doesn't have Mas is short-sighted. Proposing Lobot is just offering the opponent 27 free points, IMO, and requires the sacrifice of far too many swap options, thus negating Panaka's role. I would happily Intuition up to your big-hitter Cad or Lord Vader, shoot to lock it down, and then swap a Rodian Brute into its place. Go ahead and waste your shots with Cad, now Dash can mobile up and blast him, and then mobile back. Also, it might surprise you and others here to learn that I utilized Panaka as a combatant, not a 23-point commander who spent the entire game in the back corner. I think you should play the squad before you remark on how weak it looks. I might remind you that I went 3-0 with it, and I beat 2 of the best players at our venue. I'm sorry you didn't see the link to the tournament report, but it is here in this thread.

Secondly, these pieces you list here can only deal massive damage if they can attack something, and then they have to hit.

I apologize if my responses to you have come across as hostile or defensive, but I have found your suggestions to be not necessarily terrible but rather, well, ignorant or perhaps dismissive of the impact that Dark Times and Galaxy at War have had on the competitive meta. Some of that may be because it hasn't been fully realized, and some may be the result of the meta, particularly the local one (as really that is the only thing I am concerned about), just not catching up yet.

EDIT: By the way, I am rethinking my position on Jax Pavan after looking at his card last night as I was sleeving all the new rares. I admit I may have underestimated him before.


Yes, they were hostile and defensive.. but I've come to realize thats just the way you are when you post.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Please refrain from baiting and attacking comments. This thread ought to be dicussing the merits of the squad posted and suggestions for improvements. Try to focus on that. Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:09 pm 
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Ruhk wrote:
Please refrain from baiting and attacking comments. This thread ought to be dicussing the merits of the squad posted and suggestions for improvements. Try to focus on that. Thank you.


Im not baiting Boris, just agreeing with him on the sentiments of the post.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Seriously guys, it's just a squad discussion. It's fine to discuss whether certain pieces are needed or not. If this is something that gets someone offended or riled up, I'd hate to see how such people react when its something serious.

Sith_Assassyn: I didn't say I was hostile or defensive. I said I'm sorry if you took it that way. Please don't confuse my apology as to how the comments came across, how you perceived them, with the notion that it's a confession or admission that they were. That would be absolutely untrue. I think it's important to explain the choices made in squad design when they are being discounted. For example, I didn't just add Panaka (and subsequently, didn't just NOT add Mas) on a whim. It was carefully considered and decided. And the squad was undefeated. I think that is the most important point.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:10 pm 
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Sith_Asassyn wrote:
Quote:
I Don't really care whats going to show up, I just play a squad that does enough damage to take out whatever I face.


If you don't care to think about what's going to show up, how exactly do you know you'll have enough firepower to deal with it?


Its just an assumption that ive made.. I usually run powerful pieces that can do 80-100 damage or more.. Dash, LV, Cad Bane, etc.. etc.[/quote]

I'm going to call you out on this statement Rick. First, I don't believe you are being accurate (perhaps accurate to what you consciously think you are doing, but not with the reality) and second, that if this were the case, it invalidates any help you want to offer in terms of how someone builds a squad. Let me explain.

1 - You say, "Its just an assumption that ive made" - That reveals if not an overt conscious nod to meta, but at least a subconscious or base level nod to it. You are not consciously making your decisions based on this, but that's because you already have a knowledge of what is "enough" for a squad. That information is not natural, it's obtained through experience, which you can only get by playing, and most of it comes from where and with whom you play the most. Your knowledge of "enough" comes directly from having seen repeatedly how much you need, and it's become natural to the point you really don't have to think about it, you simply include it automatically. That is absolutely meta thinking, and deriding Dennis for considering other issues related to the same concern, is not fair or accurate.

2 - If we assume you really didn't care for thinking about the meta, then you have nothing further to say to anyone in terms of a "competitive squad" design. You also should not be posting your own "competitive squads". Now, I believe neither of those to be true, but they are none-the-less logical conclusions if we take your statement at face value. (also clearly read the word "competitive" here). Since I don't believe you based on your own posting over the years, conversations, reading your builds, etc, I won't belabor the point further.

What is really going on is that you see a lack of damage output as the primary issue, and Dennis is looking more locally at what he needs to counter in his own meta. As it were, Dennis was right and you were wrong (he went 3-0 and beat what he expected to see). However, where you can challenge his build, is where I have done so. It may have won, but it isn't fully optimized (and that's a relative term too in all honesty, based on meta). But I think his question about the usefulness of Ferus is right on target, and it reveals to me that Dennis noticed the lack of full optimization as well.

Which is why, I was talking through what I would change in the build in terms of what Dennis wanted to do with it, rather than some bland, "X would be better" kind of talk.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:18 pm 
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Well returning to the squad's discussion.. Zuckuss.. I like him with GWOK. I know you didn't face any lancer squads dennis, how do you feel about your squad's ability to handle a pawned strafe? And I'm talkign specifically on the Nickname 6 restricted map list. Zuckuss' intuition gives him great movement options, but against a good opponent whats your plan? Aggressively hunt the Lancer down? in cover Zucker needs 12s to hit it, not the best odds but a fprr could help. I suppose runing him close and then swaping in.. potentially could work, but I can't think of a situation in which you could swap effectively (except end round) and still get the lancer.. maybe this will be something I can explore on vassal.

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 Post subject: Re: Return of the King
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:30 pm 
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Ruhk wrote:
Well returning to the squad's discussion.. Zuckuss.. I like him with GWOK. I know you didn't face any lancer squads dennis, how do you feel about your squad's ability to handle a pawned strafe? And I'm talkign specifically on the Nickname 6 restricted map list. Zuckuss' intuition gives him great movement options, but against a good opponent whats your plan? Aggressively hunt the Lancer down? in cover Zucker needs 12s to hit it, not the best odds but a fprr could help. I suppose runing him close and then swaping in.. potentially could work, but I can't think of a situation in which you could swap effectively (except end round) and still get the lancer.. maybe this will be something I can explore on vassal.


Swap Zuckuss and run into adjacency with the lancer. That's probably the best counter you could do, and if you could get there, effectively end the lancer barring decent roles. Obviously you will need to do more than just this move, but I can at least envision the ability to end the lancer with zuck alone, if you can get off one attack on it early on. Stick it once, and swap in Obi later in the round to finish it. If they use San, then it's easy pickings. If they don't, it can still be done, mostly a matter of getting the proper doors open at the right time.

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