--Grand Master and Wife--
115 Grand Master Luke Skywalker
45 Mara Jade, Jedi
18 Lando Calrissian, Dashing Scoundrel
9 General Dodonna
12 Ugnaught Demolitionist x4
(199pts. 8 activations)

Takes advantage of Lukes CE while still using shooters. Mara also deals with other Djem So people, like AniCoN or Vader Scourge to keep Luke alive. Lando mostly acts as a scrub killer, and the uggs blow doors quickly.

Only tried him once but I think you NEED Leia in there for her CE.

LS Defense just isn't enough. He'll burn up Force VERY quickly - especially against decent shooters (who yes, need 27's, 23's with Targeting).

Just My Opinion.

I haven't played with her, but I can see her usefulness.
I've mostly just avoided running out of FP's by picking and choosing when to Defense. Lukes problem is he must either support, or be supported in a squad.

TBSV > Lando DS these days I'm afraid.

I don't think it helps all that much. You simply end up trading what limited offense you could had to make your saves better odds. But most people are going to play against Luke as if he will make his saves anyways. Most of the time, I just figure out what I need to do to kill him with my squad assuming he makes every save. I think Leia isn't really that great of a help.

Not in his squad. Lando has 10 more hps. TBSV does base 10 dmg with jolt, but Lando does base 20. Generally, I prefer the base 20. If you have nothing to benefit from his CE, I too would take Lando for the extra hps. Bounty Hunter is rarely an issue with Lando anyways, since he is rarely a target at all, and generally is perceived as a lesser threat early on.

This was my thinking. The extra HP's means he takes the Double as well as a twin from Rex/Dash, survives a lancer strafe, etc. That extra 30 damage the next round has cost games that I've played.

I beg to differ on the Leia comment. Isn't a great help? How so? I'd say GMLS was costed with her in mind (unfortunately).

Simple. Luke squads will perform roughly equally well or poorly both with Leia and with a more offensive piece in her place. Both are Tier 2 at best in 200, regardless. Playable in most venues either way, but neither will be top tier.

I do not at all agree that spending 25pts to pump up an already 115pt piece is the answer.

Also, the benefits she brings isn't that great to him. With MotF2 and renewal, his odds of failure on saves isn't that significant that Leia makes a huge difference.

Well, what it does is keep Luke from burning through FPs quite so fast. Leia will allow him to last longer on the field, but it's in lieu of some other piece with some actual offensive punch. The best you could do, offensively, at that point, would be like GMLS, Leia, Mara, and 5 Ugos/Mice, lol. It's the same as any other choice when building a squad: tech or offense? A lot of it comes down to personal preference/playstyle.

Bingo. Lobo got what I was after. Luke can save some FPs thanks to Leia.

So no one else thinks GMLS was costed with Leia in mind huh? I can almost guarantee it. If she doesn't have that CE, I imagine he would be closer to 100.

Advantage of Leia:

Re-Rolling Defense of course, more importantly, Rerolling Djem So. That is where I believe she pays off huge.

Disadvantage:

Bill makes a good a point. You're spending another 25 points on your squad so you're up to 140 points already (leaving 10 points or less then 7% of your squad remaining at 150 and 20% or 60 points left at 200).

She does help yes, but of course, most people are going to try and track down Leia (Or mice) where possible then work on Luke after.

I suppose she isn't necessary no, but she is of huge benefit. IF you can work in a few other pieces that can benefit from saves (one way or the other) it is another option out there.

Mara of course is a great option with Luke, sure but Leia helps too I guess. Depends on your play style.

Of course, had I said, "Leia isn't needed you are correct" bill would have said, "Leia is integral....."

Where are you getting that information? I don't agree much at all.

I think Luke is actually costed pretty well. I challenge you to play a game with Luke and Leia, then play the same game over in your head, with the same rolls without Leia and using some other offensive piece. I'm not saying Leia does nothing, I understand exactly what she does.

But it's 140pts for the combo. That is too much in a 150 and probably too much in 200.

Case in point, you both mentioned "saving him FPs". Luke won't be running out of FPs any more than any other big beat with Renewal has in the past. That is entirely up to the player running him properly. Much like GOWK, the player running him either must have bad rolls (or really good opposing rolls), and so on for it to make a difference. Otherwise, it all depends on if he uses Force Defense or not, same as GOWK with Push. The clever player will not commonly run out of FPs with MotF2 and renewal 2. So Leia's benefit is situational at best.

So what if I get one more djem so, or one more lightsaber defense off in some situations with Leia. I would rather have the consistent offense of another solid piece in a squad where I am already severely limited in offense by running Luke to begin with. That's the primary issue here. Which is more important when building a squad? Giving Luke situational benefits for a whopping 140pts or spending the precious little 85 on more offense.

Then we definitely disagree on Luke's cost. He's overcosted in my book (and I like him). It's about saving FPs. Leia does that for him. Even for those few times when you are out in the open spending FPs. Also, Leia does have Force Absorb and LT 2. So she could really come in handy with Luke besides her CE.

I'm of the opinion Luke was costed so high with Leia and, perhaps, Cade in mind. Take those two pieces away and Luke is a lower cost.

I agree somewhat with most of what you said until this.

One more Djem so can mean the death of JWM or 50 more damage on your opponent's melee piece.

This is a good question:



But again, not is it only situational and helpful to Luke, it is of benefit to the whole squad. Granted, yes it's taking away the majority of the build. That said, it's also ensuring the survivability of your "key piece" if you will. I'd take her CE for re-rolling Djem so Alone, let alone Defense.

Sure you can add more offense, but arguably, you're getting more with Leia with the DSM re-roll then you could get with another add to the squad while, at the same time, preserving the survivability of Luke (and potentially others) in your squad.

So I guess it just comes down to play style. What you prefer more. More Offense or more Defense.

Either way, there is no "right".

Leia isn't going to survive anywhere near Luke. Nor is Cade. Heck, against most squads, they aren't even going to survive as far away from Luke as possible.

I suggest you guys play test this a little more. It doesn't work. Cade, Luke, Leia is actually worse than Luke, Leia.

All eggs in one basket builds are very hard to run. I would argue, without swapping, it's virtually impossible to make it consistent enough to be a winner.

This isn't just about play style preferences Fool. It's about what will win consistently. Luke and Mara as the OP built it, or your suggestion of Luke and Leia instead.

I think Luke Mara is a vastly superior build. I think you guys are missing one critical thing here. Luke doesn't just have to kill one opposing piece to be decent. He has to kill at least 115pts, or survive until time with a points lead. Neither of those is easy to pull off, without swapping. You need more damage output in most cases over Luke getting to reroll failed saves.

I guess it comes from having played against Luke now multiple times and being a combined 8-0 against him in 150 (2 games) and 200 (6 games). It's actually an interesting playtest figure, because you really can't do much to run him wrong. There is strategy in how to use his FPs, when to charge and so forth, but the weaknesses of the squad is pretty consistent regardless of what support he has, and so the way to play against it is also pretty consistent. I have beaten Luke with GMYoda and Vong in 150, WM Vong, JH Vong, Exile OR squad, Sith squad, and two different Republic squads, one with Yodabuck and the other a Qui-Gon trainer squad of 20ish uniques and Rangers.

In all of them, I generally did the same things. I used what ever tricks my squad had, to safely eliminate Luke's support quickly (or as soon as it was a real threat to me) and then focused fire on Luke. In one 150 (Vong) Leia and her two mice died as soon as they got close to Luke, offering him 0 rerolls. In the 200s, he has gotten rerolls, but here's the key, I never counted on him failing those rolls so it didn't matter.

All you have to do is understand how to count the damage you will get and need to kill him, and prevent what you can from him. It's really not that hard to do. Who cares if he Djem so's your 20pt melee figures to death? I don't. I don't need them to survive the battle. I don't win because they survive. I win because they put damage on Luke before he can Djem so me. I bait him into position, which as the only offensive piece in most of his squads, he has to take, and then pound him into the ground, usually in about 2 rounds. He cannot kill enough fast enough. I don't give up triple twins very often, but I do leave pieces with 10hps, or 20 left adjacent to him at the end of a round, after attacking. Why, because then Luke either has to waste his turn hitting it again, take and AoO in which case I don't care generally if Djem so hits or not, or get hit by it again after that. He can't kill multiple figures fast enough by himself.

Point is, the biggest weakness that you can exploit when playing against Luke isn't a lack of FPs, or him failing saves, it's his lack of consistent offensive punch. So when playing him, I believe more offense is better than more defense. Luke is a tough Son of a Gun at 115, but he needs to eliminate opposing pieces fast. It's tough to finish his last 20-30hps if you only have one decent attacker left, but if you still have 3, it's pretty much game over. That's the difference.

I agree on your point about Luke + Cade + Leia is worse.

That aside, well said. You going 8-0 -vs- Luke I'm said to say is meaningless. If that came from me to you, well, then it may mean something

In all seriousness, unless you're telling me those games are against say, Tint, Lobo, Dean, MtMagus or the other Top Players and not some random dudes on Vassal it really means nothing Bill. You could go 8-0 against pretty much anything (That's a compliment by the way)

It was mostly a playstyle descision. I mainly run up and engage quickly, so another solid beatstick is something I'd do well with. I had a similar mental debate on this subject, and I felt that the best defense was a deadly offense. I'f either Luke or Mara dies, the other, in most cases, can clean up what was missed.

Exactly my point. It's more than playstyle, it's a strategic decision. With Mara Luke, your opponent has to make choices as to which to deal with first and how. With Luke Leia, you already made those choices for him.

I agree with Bill.

In my experience vs Luke in 200 Leia is a help but she is little more than a crutch. Making Luke successful comes down to what most squads come down to, playing well. You will benefit much more from having a shooter in there than Leia in a lot of situations. The other day I was playing on Vassal with Dean and Johnny watching and I destroyed a Luke/Leia squad with Malak and some Wookies, it is just to much tech and if you are spending an additional 25 points as mentioned before to make 115 better the issue with Luke is he is 1 mini. Just 1.

He can only be in one place at a time. In 200 you can have GMY, Dash, and a JWM for 119. That should tell you something lol.

You will need pieces to provide the offense. I would actually consider some Cunning figures as opposed to just going for the Opportunist shooters (although the best cheap shooters are all Oppo usually).

You could go with something like this:

GMLS 115
Dash RS 28
Kyp 26
Dodonna 9
Jagged Fel 10
4xUgo/Mouse (whichever combo you wish) 12


There are days I seriously wish the NR had access to the JBM lol...he would help Luke immensely.