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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:30 am 
Master of the Order
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In my experience Aaron, any squad that takes the center alone usually does so because it contains beefy characters in a combination that are superior to the squad it is facing. Without pointing fingers at specific players, I have had games where I moved to engage but my opponent knew he/she would not win, and so left his/her pieces on the back row until time was almost up in order to try to get a last-minute point lead by rushing to kill one figure. This was before the 2 pt. win.

Most squads I have seen or even built that were designed with slow play in mind don't have aggressive figures. I remember one time I built a Super Stealth Imperial squad, and used Muunilist from the Clone Strike starter as my map. I set up the Kel Dor to cover Gambit, shooting anything that got in the "kill box," and then let my melee figs run to the center for Gambit points. I didn't intend to slow play, but it did keep people out of the middle of the map, and once or twice I had opponents that wouldn't engage at all.

It's a little discouraging that the necessary structure of the tournament format precludes some fun squad ideas. But it is what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:39 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
It's a little discouraging that the necessary structure of the tournament format precludes some fun squad ideas. But it is what it is.


Definitely agree with you there. Though your SS Imp squad would still be A-OK in my book, so long as you were ahead in points. The trouble is when those slow-play-esque squads get behind in points, and then want to continue to play with those tactics until they can garner a meager lead again.

In cases like this, the whole 2-point/3-point win thing is somewhat more of a necessary evil of sorts, I guess. I agree that it's a shame we have to go to the limits we have in order to make the game competitive. But I for one would rather see a couple of squad archetypes disappear, rather than have games where people jockey for position for 60 minutes, and end up with 10-15 scores at the end of it all.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:59 am 
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Honestly I think Gambit is the problem. The concept of how to win the game is self-defeating. Here's a hypothetical conversation:

Player: So how do I win this game?
Judge: You have to defeat all your opponent's pieces.
Player: What if I can't get to their pieces, like if they lock themselves in a room?
Judge: If that happens, then after X number of rounds without any action taking place, you just add up the points.
Player: And what happens if there is one significant action every 4 rounds.
Judge: Well, there's a time limit.
Player: So I can just get the points lead by killing one piece before time runs out and win rather than fight my full squad versus theirs?
Judge: Well you can, but players can also get points by standing in any of the four squares surrounding the center of the map.
Player: Well I brought a shooter squad, so why would I station my pieces so close to the action?
Judge: Ummm... to score points. To, you know, win.
Player: What if they wait to the last minute to rush one of my higher cost pieces to overtake my lead?
Judge: Ummm.... then they win, but they score less tournament victory points.
Player: So I played the whole game and through no fault of my own, I still lose. And my only option is to place myself in a strategically disadvantaged position and hope they miss all their attacks?
Judge: Ummm... yes, that is correct.


In an ironic twist, WotC once published an article explaining why maps with center chokepoints are bad for a miniatures game. And yet, it is the entire focus of tournament-level play for SWM.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:08 am 
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Do you have a link to that article by chance? I'd like to read it.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:25 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
Honestly I think Gambit is the problem. The concept of how to win the game is self-defeating. Here's a hypothetical conversation:

Player: So how do I win this game?
Judge: You have to defeat all your opponent's pieces.
Player: What if I can't get to their pieces, like if they lock themselves in a room?
Judge: If that happens, then after X number of rounds without any action taking place, you just add up the points.
Player: And what happens if there is one significant action every 4 rounds.
Judge: Well, there's a time limit.
Player: So I can just get the points lead by killing one piece before time runs out and win rather than fight my full squad versus theirs?
Judge: Well you can, but players can also get points by standing in any of the four squares surrounding the center of the map.
Player: Well I brought a shooter squad, so why would I station my pieces so close to the action?
Judge: Ummm... to score points. To, you know, win.
Player: What if they wait to the last minute to rush one of my higher cost pieces to overtake my lead?
Judge: Ummm.... then they win, but they score less tournament victory points.
Player: So I played the whole game and through no fault of my own, I still lose. And my only option is to place myself in a strategically disadvantaged position and hope they miss all their attacks?
Judge: Ummm... yes, that is correct.


In an ironic twist, WotC once published an article explaining why maps with center chokepoints are bad for a miniatures game. And yet, it is the entire focus of tournament-level play for SWM.


Yeah, I know.

What's the alternative though? With the new 3-point scoring system, and rules for stalling, is it enough to do away with Gambit altogether? It brings back the possibility of things like sniping a cheap piece and then using Lockout tactics. Granted, that only gets people the 2 point win. So, is the threat of a 2-point vs. 3-point win enough to keep people from using lockout tactics?

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 10:52 am 
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Grand Moff Boris wrote:
In an ironic twist, WotC once published an article explaining why maps with center chokepoints are bad for a miniatures game. And yet, it is the entire focus of tournament-level play for SWM.


I disagree. The time limit is by far the bigger issue. Gambit scoring has been significantly reduced by changes in the rules. The style of play you decry is not encouraged because tournaments require a time limit to finish games, and because some (perhaps many) players refused to believe that they could/should play fast enough to finish games in an hour. I have no problem playing a "sniping" style game in an hour, and finish it. The time limit is the biggest deterrent to it, not gambit.

As to the squad in question, there is a simple solution. With defenses as high as this, why would you want to just sit in gambit and hope you can't die? What's the point of that strategy? You can go base things, attack, and your odds of winning are equal to sitting alone. Make the comparison. Odds of killing anything by hiding a high d piece in gambit - 0. Odds of your opponent killing that piece - let's say 10% in an hour by not moving up. Odds of you killing pieces by charging in - 50%, odds of you dying by charging - maybe 50%. Your odds are better by being offensive anyways. Why should the rules further encourage not playing the game by stalling in the middle? It isn't even good strategy in all honesty - and it most certainly doesn't make the game fun for anyone involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:12 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
Grand Moff Boris wrote:
In an ironic twist, WotC once published an article explaining why maps with center chokepoints are bad for a miniatures game. And yet, it is the entire focus of tournament-level play for SWM.


I disagree. The time limit is by far the bigger issue. Gambit scoring has been significantly reduced by changes in the rules. The style of play you decry is not encouraged because tournaments require a time limit to finish games, and because some (perhaps many) players refused to believe that they could/should play fast enough to finish games in an hour. I have no problem playing a "sniping" style game in an hour, and finish it. The time limit is the biggest deterrent to it, not gambit.

As to the squad in question, there is a simple solution. With defenses as high as this, why would you want to just sit in gambit and hope you can't die? What's the point of that strategy? You can go base things, attack, and your odds of winning are equal to sitting alone. Make the comparison. Odds of killing anything by hiding a high d piece in gambit - 0. Odds of your opponent killing that piece - let's say 10% in an hour by not moving up. Odds of you killing pieces by charging in - 50%, odds of you dying by charging - maybe 50%. Your odds are better by being offensive anyways. Why should the rules further encourage not playing the game by stalling in the middle? It isn't even good strategy in all honesty - and it most certainly doesn't make the game fun for anyone involved.



I'm going to use Cad Bane just for the Flight/GMA option.

As your opponent, I'd be 9-11 away obviously so:

Base, no damage to Cad

Cad 4 shots at +20, so he still needs 12 (per vassal) 12, 2, 19, 8. 60 Damage and moves 6 away
Bariss Deflect (Force 3) 11, 50HPs
Gowk Soresu (force 4) 17, 12 120 HPs

Next round

Base, 20 Damage Bane at 60HP

Cad Repeats (18,17,2,9) 60 Damage
Bariss Deflect (Force 3) 13 20 Hps
Gowk 18,16 120 HPs

Base, 20 Damage Cad at 40
Cad 5,6,16,17 60 Damage
Bariss defeated
Gowk 11,15 120 Hps and like 6 Force at this point, but you can see him killing Bane is inevitable.

So yeah, it's still situational. He could definately charge with Gowk, Bariss, eh, not so much. Also I think a lot of those rolls may have hit Gowk, really didn't check all the +'s and -'s. The question is: Should he have had to in the first place?

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:26 am 
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The_Celestial_Warrior wrote:
So yeah, it's still situational. He could definately charge with Gowk, Bariss, eh, not so much. Also I think a lot of those rolls may have hit Gowk, really didn't check all the +'s and -'s. The question is: Should he have had to in the first place?


The answer from me is a resounding yes, of course you should. You can't kill anything, i.e. play the game unless you do. You've chosen to use a melee squad that requires getting adjacent. Why should the game rules encourage you to sit in the middle rather than try to actually play the game?

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:27 am 
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Getting back to talking about the squad. I say it loses more than it wins. Acurate shot takes out R2 and your ugy easily. Plus you are genreally going to be out activated even against folks who aren't using Dodonna. A pawned lancer also takes out your R2, ugy and Geno easily. There are just several ways to beat it that are all valid options. Then on top of it once I take out one of the main pieces things start to fall apart. Artis would be my next target. She doens't get the +4 from GOWK and hitting a 24 is easy making her use her Force which she will run out of.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:04 pm 
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But why should i have to run 3/4 across the map? Shouldn't my opp be somewhat obligated to engage as well? I run to the center and say here i am come and get me and my opp c just say nah ill stand over here and do nothing or shoot you needing 18s and hope i hit?

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:06 pm 
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urbanjedi wrote:
But why should i have to run 3/4 across the map? Shouldn't my opp be somewhat obligated to engage as well? I run to the center and say here i am come and get me and my opp c just say nah ill stand over here and do nothing or shoot you needing 18s and hope i hit?


It's not a good choice for the opponent either though. There is no reason strategically that he should sit back like that in most cases against a squad like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:11 pm 
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This is why I love abilities like Push, Grip, and Repulse.

All Your Defense Are Belong to Us

Kinda reminds me of a Trooper Squad my friend played a week ago. 501st Stormies with Vader IC with a Felucian Officer. so in cover they had insane Defense. He had the misfortune of playing against My Revan Sith Lord and Acolyte swap squad. bet you can figure how that one went haha.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Y'all have it backwards. If you go to the center to score Gambit points, and your opponent makes no attempt to attack at all, then the one sitting in their start area is the one failing to engage. Not the person who has made at least a minimal attempt to to win the game.

There's no gray area there about whose slow playing. It's the guy making ZERO attempt to score points. As soon as the score is 5-0 the 0 is always the person on the hook to make an attempt to win the game.

The only real gray area I see is if the person in gambit is taking fire, but not taking damage due to evade, armor, healing and so on. Player A is attempting to win and has the lead due to Gambit. Player B is attempting to win, but just incapable of dealing damage fast enough. And if it's truly a suicide rush for either player, I can see having at least a bit of sympathy for the guy who's going to lose. (But if his plan isn't working, and he's going to lose, he really should change plans.)

That said, I'll generally just rush anyway. I'm just too used to having to cross the whole board against timid players to worry about maybe losing because if it.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 11:21 pm 
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NickName wrote:
Y'all have it backwards. If you go to the center to score Gambit points, and your opponent makes no attempt to attack at all, then the one sitting in their start area is the one failing to engage. Not the person who has made at least a minimal attempt to to win the game.

There's no gray area there about whose slow playing. It's the guy making ZERO attempt to score points. As soon as the score is 5-0 the 0 is always the person on the hook to make an attempt to win the game.

The only real gray area I see is if the person in gambit is taking fire, but not taking damage due to evade, armor, healing and so on. Player A is attempting to win and has the lead due to Gambit. Player B is attempting to win, but just incapable of dealing damage fast enough. And if it's truly a suicide rush for either player, I can see having at least a bit of sympathy for the guy who's going to lose. (But if his plan isn't working, and he's going to lose, he really should change plans.)

That said, I'll generally just rush anyway. I'm just too used to having to cross the whole board against timid players to worry about maybe losing because if it.


Can I just say I agree completely :). In the "gray" case you mentioned, as a judge, I'd simply ask them how many rounds they had played. If its enough by the particular time, then there is no slow play warning, just a 2 point win likely.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:12 am 
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Excellent point Jason.

Only reason I referenced giving out Slow Play warnings to both players in my earlier responses, is because 90% of the time I see squads like this being played, the person playing this squad is the one actually playing slow, because they're banking on the hope of their pieces being able to survive in gambit just long enough to squeeze out the win, and likely end up falling into the category that you alluded to, of the opponent making attacks, but no damage getting through.

Not every situation is black and white though. That's why it's ALWAYS important to call over a judge.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:06 am 
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The old maps maps with open gambit used to totally support the concept of creating a 5-0 lead to force a (typically full board) suicide rush by your opponent, and you benefitted by stretching that out to increase the time pressure.

In my experience, the new rules and map list discourage that pretty well. But I missed Gencon last year so maybe I missed some of the examples you're referring to.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:44 pm 
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Having seen a variation of this squad in action Sunday, I think there may be something to it. It will give shooter squads a heck of a time, and even a decent amount of Melee squads. My Revan had issue hitting Luminara with Cunning. I may mess around with it a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:20 am 
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I think it is all about how you play it. A variation took 2nd place at the Capital City Champs and had all 3 pt victories on its run.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 10:15 am 
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urbanjedi wrote:
I think it is all about how you play it. A variation took 2nd place at the Capital City Champs and had all 3 pt victories on its run.


But let's be totally clear. Lou playing it, is about the complete opposite to the strategies being discussed in this thread. :) Played the way suggested in this thread, the guy would have had 6-8 points, and not made the top 4. Again and again, the best strategy for winning, is not slow playing in the center hoping to win a close point game, but to take your advantages and use them for attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Can't hit me
PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:18 am 
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billiv15 wrote:
urbanjedi wrote:
I think it is all about how you play it. A variation took 2nd place at the Capital City Champs and had all 3 pt victories on its run.


But let's be totally clear. Lou playing it, is about the complete opposite to the strategies being discussed in this thread. :) Played the way suggested in this thread, the guy would have had 6-8 points, and not made the top 4. Again and again, the best strategy for winning, is not slow playing in the center hoping to win a close point game, but to take your advantages and use them for attack.


Obviously. I couldn't play it the way it was originally suggested anyway. Too boring.

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